General Gun Discussion

[Nilsen]

I found this part VERY INTERESTING......

"Here are eight factoids I found that also cause backwards little old me to clutch my wood and metal friend called the gun:

1. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

2. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

3. Germany established gun control in 1938, and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

4. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

5. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

6. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

7. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

8. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million."

That many dead due to.........................

Many of these places were oppressed by their regimes BEFORE the "gun control" laws so i always find the references to these nations abit amusing every time they are brought up. Ofcourse these nations do not want their people to have guns. I would think very hard before using these nations as reference to anyting, unless you want the US to be looked at as similar to these places.

[Vulcan]

So I must ask some questions here.........

You're not a dense person right?

You do understand the POINT of the article?

What do you think of the US disarming Iraqi civilians then?

I'm sorry wrag, sticking to your guns on that quote makes you look like a squeeling pro-gun freak as bad as the antigun people. In most of those examples the general population wouldn't have been able to afford guns, and any resistance would've been meagre and disorganized at the most. Many went peacefully because they had no idea what was coming. Gun ownership would've made neglible difference.

The problem with the fanatical antigun-control people like yourself in the USA is that you constantly seek to use overseas comparisons for your argument. However the USA is such a unique situation that it just doesn't make sense to compare.

Take New Zealand, we have gun control laws, we have a relatively high gun ownership rate (only 1/3rd of the USA though), and an extremely low gun crime rate (especially underlined given reported gun crimes include 'fakes' and unconfirmed reports).  Would our system work in the USA? No. Because we have a different culture.

So before you start mouthing off totally irrelevent and obfuscated facts think twice.

[Vulcan]

Yes it got snoopifyed but there are many storys like these...real ones....I will share a few soon!!

and snopes will be waiting

[SOB]

Something that arrived in your email wasn't true?!  Weird.

[Jackal1]

Jackal, I'm a gun owner who believes that if our Government allows unstable delusional old hippie revolutionaries to own firearms- say, someone like me, for instance- then we're in deep doo doo.

So called old delusional hippies of the time period are the ones who started this country.
Also the government is supposed to be by the people, for the people. That gets forgotten a lot.
Without private gun ownership you will come up with government over the people.....total government.
If all else fails and things get too totalitarian my state can just bail from the system. We`re not in legally anyway.

[Jackal1]

Where I live the Mosberg is quite legal. However the handgun isn't

Must suck to be you.


 

[Curval]

Sorry, not going to get dragged into another gun debate.

You seem to think that your laws, which are akin to shutting the door after the horse has bolted, are better than ours.  Fine.  Far be it for me to criticise a country's laws that are not my own.  (Doesn't seem to be a problem for you guys to do so though)

[Swoop]

Toad mate, you're kinda aruging semantics here.  A law preventing gun ownership would certainly not be obeyed more than a law preventing gun usage.....however, being caught with a firearm means what has happened is you've been caught with a firearm, no real harm done.  Being caught using a firearm means some poor sod is either dead or has a very large hole in him.

And besides, you don't seriously think that Bermuda doesn't also have laws detailing punishments for those not only having an illegal firearm but using it as well do you?

Your point (and please correct me if I've missed something here cos even though we speak the same language us Brits misunderstand you lads all the time) seems to be that if Bermudians will obey a law preventing gun ownership then they'll also obey a law preventing firearm usage......well they do already, they obey both (well most of em do anyway).  So what difference would doing away with the gun ownership law make when you're living in a country with no sport shooting heritage, nothing to hunt and not really any huge reason to need a defence against gun toting criminals cos they're few and far between.........

Curval's point seems to be that if firearms were legal there then the criminal element would find it (slightly) easier to get em in the first place and thereby create a reason for law abiding citizens to need a firearm deterent.  At present they don't.



Right here right now I'm in agreement with Curv but I'm always open to suggestion provided we can all be nice and friendly and not start accusing each other of not being able to read.

Ahem.

[Toad]

What do you think of the US disarming Iraqi civilians then?

IIRC, each family was allowed to keep an AK-47. Is that really disarming them?

Would our system work in the USA? No. Because we have a different culture.

And that friends, sums up the effectiveness of gun laws. The laws are as effective as the culture allows. It's why England has had a basically stable gun crime rate despite ever increasing amounts of gun regulation. It's not the laws; it's the people/culture that keep the rate low, the result of a 90+% homogeneous society.

[Toad]

Sorry, not going to get dragged into another gun debate.

I don't blame you Curval. If you can't admit the obvious, you might as well bolt the thread.

Clearly, if you believe that laws that deal out harsh penalties for possession are the reason Bermuda has a low gun crime rate then it follows that if guns were legal in Bermuda, laws that deal out harsh penalties for criminal use would preserve your low gun crime rate.

But even though you can't admit it, you know that is just not true. It isn't the LAWS that keep Bermudian gun crime low, it's your societal mores.


I absolutely don't care about Bermudian gun law; it doesn't affect me in the least. I think we might as well be honest about it though.

It's not the laws... you know it and everyone knows it. It's your society.

As long as you can maintain tight control over access to your small island, all will be well.

You seem to think that your laws, which are akin to shutting the door after the horse has bolted, are better than ours.  Fine.  Far be it for me to criticise a country's laws that are not my own.  (Doesn't seem to be a problem for you guys to do so though)

Note well that I have not criticized Bermudian gun laws. I just pointed out that the laws are not the reason for your low crime. You admit as much when you say laws with similar harsh penalties for criminal use of firearms would not provide the same result were guns legal in Bermuda.

Your laws would not work here for many reasons.

Our laws would not work in Bermuda for many reasons.

The salient reason in both cases is that the underlying culture/society really determines the amount of gun crime, not the gun laws on the books.

[Hornet33]

Yeah I thought the only disarming we were doing over in Iraq was the odd RPG, and 80mm mortar system. We're letting them keep the small arms for the most part, unless they're shooting at our guys. Then we kill them and take the weapons.

[wrag]

What do you think of the US disarming Iraqi civilians then?

I'm sorry wrag, sticking to your guns on that quote makes you look like a squeeling pro-gun freak as bad as the antigun people. In most of those examples the general population wouldn't have been able to afford guns, and any resistance would've been meagre and disorganized at the most. Many went peacefully because they had no idea what was coming. Gun ownership would've made neglible difference.

The problem with the fanatical antigun-control people like yourself in the USA is that you constantly seek to use overseas comparisons for your argument. However the USA is such a unique situation that it just doesn't make sense to compare.

Take New Zealand, we have gun control laws, we have a relatively high gun ownership rate (only 1/3rd of the USA though), and an extremely low gun crime rate (especially underlined given reported gun crimes include 'fakes' and unconfirmed reports).  Would our system work in the USA? No. Because we have a different culture.

So before you start mouthing off totally irrelevent and obfuscated facts think twice.

Don't be sorry PLEASE!

Cause I must say I don't believe you are.

As to obfuscating.......

Couldn't afford guns? 

IMHO that seems more like obfuscation then what I put forward.

Squeeling pro-gun freak?

Because I believe in the RIGHT of self-defense?

"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state." ~~ George Mason, Virginia Ratification Convention, 1788

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"The defense of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law." - James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, 1896


Meager?

Took only what?  A few jews with handguns to START in Warsaw was it?

"There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people had not been ‘brainwashed’ about gun ownership and they had been well armed. Hitler's thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made tulips out of the Nazi's." ~~ Theodore Haas, former prisoner of the infamous Dachau prisoner concentration camp.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."~~Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942

Or is this more toward your beliefs?

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."~~Nikita Khrushchev

"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person."~~Vladimir Lenin

"There is the great, silent, continuous struggle: the struggle between the State and the Individual."~~ Benito Mussolini

"The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual"~~Adolph Hitler

"At a time when our entire country is banding together and facing down individualism, the Patriots set a wonderful example, showing us all what is possible when we work together, believe in each other, and sacrifice for the greater good."~~Ted Kennedy

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."~~Hillary Clinton, 1993

Many of you are well enough off that... the tax cuts may have helped you... We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. -- Sen. Hillary Clinton, San Francisco, June 28, 2004 ~ or...

"...from each according to his means, to each according to his needs." -- Karl Marx, 19th Century

Yep guess that stuff is just irrelevant right?

None of it happened or if it did it doesn't matter?

History has shown it is REPEATED over and over but that means nothing either?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.” —Giordano Bruno

GUN CONTROL: "The gun control debate generally ignores the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the Second amendment. The Second amendment is not about hunting deer or keeping a pistol in your nightstand. It is not about protecting oneself against common criminals. It is about preventing tyranny. The Founders knew that unarmed citizens would never be able to overthrow a tyrannical government as they did. They envisioned government as a servant, not a master, of the American people. The muskets they used against the British Army were the assault rifles of that time. It is practical, rather than alarmist, to understand that unarmed citizens cannot be secure in their freedoms." -- libertarian U.S. Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX), "Gun Control on the Back Burner," Nov. 6, 2006.


Oh well................

[Toad]

Swoop, I think the point is as I just posted.

It's not the laws, it's the society that determines the amount of gun crime.

To a certain extent, Bermuda is a Disneyland. I think that explains a lot about their level of crime in toto.

[Swoop]

I'd prefer to live in Disneyland than Faluja.


But anyway, not to make a point but just to provide you and Lazs with some interesting reading:  Have a look at www.fmft.net   it's a blog by a British firearms advocate, very good stuff and covers a lot of the oddities and stupidity of British law, along with lots of other stuff like "on this day in history so-and-so was awarded the VC for this...." and articles on firearms owned and operated by this fella.

Remember that post I put up months ago about the lad who had built his own bowling ball firing cannon?  That was stolen from FMFT.

[Toad]

Well, who wouldn't prefer Disneyland to Falujah? Let's see... artificial playground dedicated to fulfilling your every whim as compared to a third world toejamehole.  Hmmmmmmm... tough decision!

Wonder how Disneyland would be if they let everyone in who wanted to come in, no restrictions/no charge. How long would it be a paradise?

Will check out the link, sounds interesting.