General Gun Discussion

[Shamus]

I do understand.  I understand that if someone is bent on killing you, they will.  Whether you are armed or not.  Do you understand that OC reduces crime?

If you tell me it does in AZ I will take your word for it.

I have seen studies that show a drop in crime after shall issue CCW laws were passed, and I know crime dropped in Michigan after its passage, but even though open carry is legal here as far as I know for non CCW holders , it is not common here and I have never seen any data on it.

I have been carrying for over 30 years and can tell you from experience that the dicey stuff happens after the weapon is drawn, and if you are identified as armed sometimes it is forced, anecdotal I know but it counts.     
 
My opinion is that open carry would cause more problems than it would solve.

shamus

[DieAz]

The whole unload-your-gun-when-you-get-in-the-car  thing is pretty darned stupid

and highly impractical in the case of muzzle loading types.

[wrag]

Just an FYI.
When you are OC'ing please remember that if you then enter a vehicle it is considered concealed. If you do not have a CCW permit you would have to unload and put gun in one place and shells in another. 

Depends on the State you live in IIRC.

Here in Nevada yes it is concealed UNLESS you place it in plan sight!

Like on the dashboard?

Then it's LEGAL again..............

Not sure I would want to place my firearm on the dash but...........

Maybe if I was getting pulled over for a traffic violation or something then maybe?

[wrag]

I will agree that most criminals look for the softest target, but what you don't seem to understand, and I know I will never convince you, is that openly advertising your capabilities makes you the soft target.

You are probably the guy that thinks he can pick out all the secret service guys by looking for sunglasses and earpieces.

You are the one living in fantasy land my friend.

shamus 

A point that I THINK may be being missed here is NOT too many criminals want to face murder charges.

I mean yes they're some that are out and out criminals BUT....

Throw in the possibility that for every OC there is PROBABLY a CC and.......


ALSO............

Some States also still enforce the death penalty for murder.

[storch]

I will agree that most criminals look for the softest target, but what you don't seem to understand, and I know I will never convince you, is that openly advertising your capabilities makes you the soft target.

You are probably the guy that thinks he can pick out all the secret service guys by looking for sunglasses and earpieces.

You are the one living in fantasy land my friend.

shamus 

shamus you can do that with most concealed carry people as well!  the fanny packs most CC carriers utilize are blatantly obvious and you have more stuff to fumble with that a holster.  if the person carrying in these fanny packs does not routinely practice drawing his weapon he's dead before he knows it if the thug has targeted him.  he simply will not have the muscle memory to perform the moves especially under duress, I already know that I didn't when the chips were down and all I had to do was remove a seatbelt, something I did many many times each day.

[lazs2]

solids are the thing.. those big double rifles all used solids..   I would agree that an M2 is the way to go but if I had to CARRY a gun hiking..  I would carry a 44 mag with 300 grain solids.. you want penetration not expansion.  you want a big slug and.. you want a gun that doesn't weigh a ton if your primary goal is hiking or working in the woods and not hunting.. also.. maybe.. if you want a "backup" you still don't want to be burdened with 5 more pounds of revolver at your hip..   the 44 mag is to me, the best comprimise.

lazs

[Charon]

Yeah I think a .44 magnum with the heaviest, hottest loads would be about the best choice for a hiking backup gun.

Of course, most hikers seem to get by by avoiding the bears and giving them a chance to avoid you. I probably wouldn't be field crafty enough to do that unless it was something obvious -- probably be a darwin post about me at some outdoorsman site -- but then I probably wouldn't be going into bear country without being with someone who was.

I think for a light handy rifle, my Enfield No. 5 would be a good choice. Really light and handy, and the recoil for me is nothing compared to its reputation. The .303 isn't a top rifle cartridge, but it has dropped elephants and most North American big game. You can also load it with heavier hard cast rounds.

Now, if you run into a pack of Wolves

I saw a discovery channel piece on the mega fauna 10000 years ago in north america. Bears, lions tigers various gray and dire wolves... Most about 25-50 percent bigger than they are today.

In gun circles you always have the SHTF discussions, or what if you had to hunt T rex... I wondered what would be a good weapon for surviving that. You would have 2000 lb bears, 1000 lb lions and tigers and packs of 150 lb wolves. All hungry and as yet, probably not that afraid of man.

Our ancestors got along by working in groups with spears which get the job done if you have enough of them or the animal knows to fear them and decides to go elsewhere for easier meat.

But being alone in that wilderness with what you could readily carry and perhaps an ammo stash at a home base cave...

What would meet the threat of both a 2000+ lb bear and a pack of wolves?

Charon

[GtoRA2]

Yeah I think a .44 magnum with the heaviest, hottest loads would be about the best choice for a hiking backup gun.

Of course, most hikers seem to get by by avoiding the bears and giving them a chance to avoid you. I probably wouldn't be field crafty enough to do that unless it was something obvious -- probably be a darwin post about me at some outdoorsman site -- but then I probably wouldn't be going into bear country without being with someone who was.

I think for a light handy rifle, my Enfield No. 5 would be a good choice. Really light and handy, and the recoil for me is nothing compared to its reputation. The .303 isn't a top rifle cartridge, but it has dropped elephants and most North American big game. You can also load it with heavier hard cast rounds.

Now, if you run into a pack of Wolves

I saw a discovery channel piece on the mega fauna 10000 years ago in north america. Bears, lions tigers various gray and dire wolves... Most about 25-50 percent bigger than they are today.

In gun circles you always have the SHTF discussions, or what if you had to hunt T rex... I wondered what would be a good weapon for surviving that. You would have 2000 lb bears, 1000 lb lions and tigers and packs of 150 lb wolves. All hungry and as yet, probably not that afraid of man.

Our ancestors got along by working in groups with spears which get the job done if you have enough of them or the animal knows to fear them and decides to go elsewhere for easier meat.

But being alone in that wilderness with what you could readily carry and perhaps an ammo stash at a home base cave...

What would meet the threat of both a 2000+ lb bear and a pack of wolves?

Charon

A jeep with an M2 .50 Machine gun? 

[lazs2]

charon.. not to nit pic but I don't find the enfield to be much good for anything.. it is not light..  it is a heavy gun.. you can get any of a number of light rifles but the enfield is not one of em..  it is not powerful.. it was only surpassed in weakness in WWII by a few Italy rifles.    I have not found it to be particularly accurate... two piece stock and all..  every single modern light weight rifle will outshoot and outpower it.

lazs

[Angus]

Charon:
"What would meet the threat of both a 2000+ lb bear and a pack of wolves?"

I forgot the automatic shotgun....but how about 2 Tommyguns then

BTW, how would a 12 gauge slug be? Vs bear, I mean?

[Rich46yo]

Ever see a really big Bear? Ever see one in the wild?

Once you do the thought of ever hunting one with a handgun goes right from your mind. I suppose a trail gun makes sense if your out hiking and it aint hunting season. Even then I'd prefer a .454 Casull with 300 grn Speer SPs, or, heavy cast bullets. I did a test on Speer SPs out of the big Casull and found out they penetrate even better then cast bullets, and with better expansion to boot.

But any other time? To me bear guns start at a .338 win mag and I'd prefer a .375 H&H. In Africa stopping rifles start at .404 and go up to about .505. In Africa a .375 H&H is kinda like a 3006 is here in America.

But I do believe the tough Speer SPs are the best handgun hunting bullet for big game.

[Charon]

charon.. not to nit pic but I don't find the Enfield to be much good for anything.. it is not light..  it is a heavy gun.. you can get any of a number of light rifles but the Enfield is not one of em..  it is not powerful.. it was only surpassed in weakness in WWII by a few Italy rifles.    I have not found it to be particularly accurate... two piece stock and all..  every single modern light weight rifle will outshoot and outpower it.

The No. 5 is the "jungle carbine" version.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_Carbine Comes in at about 7 lbs, which is about 2lbs lighter than the no. 4 and a bit shorter and more handy. People complain about the recoil but I have no problem, probably because I replaced the old, worn out leather recoil pad with a new rubber cushioned (but original looking) one.

I agree it's not the most powerful .30 cal round, though the military bullet design makes it particularly lethal against soft targets. But you can handload or buy commercial hunting rounds or cast round nosed bullets with a higher mass and better performance against harder targets.

In WWI and WWII the Enfield was broadly (but no universally) considered the best combat bolt rifle due to magazine size and a higher rate of fire for a bolt gun with a round more than capable of killing a human. It's not as robust as the Mauser action but there was no issues with that encountered in the field.

Canadians have hunted big bears and elk and moose with it for most of the 20th century (but the same can even be said for 30/30 too). It has been used to hunt big game in Africa, though again there are clearly much better choices. It would give a lot more stopping power than a handgun (and I can shoot it better than a handgun), but as noted there are light modern alternatives you could probably find with a better round. Even 30.06 or 7.62. A MN M38 or M44 would have more stopping power, but I really can't stand the recoil in my M38. Of the guns in my safe, without having to buy a new one, it would work

Charon

[Charon]

I forgot the automatic shotgun....but how about 2 Tommyguns then

The automatic shotgun with magnum loads and slugs would be in the neighborhood probably. A magnum or larger revolver for backup. Problem with the.45 is that for big game you need a lot of penetration power to reach the brain or boiler room. A .45 works great with humans and even dire wolves at 150 lbs but a 2000 lb megafauna bear (or grizzly or polar) would be pushing it.

As GTO noted, a M2 on a jeep would be great... as long as you had some open ground. Life would probably be pretty terrifying all on your own on a day to day basis back in the megafauna days. A saber toothed tiger would only be a moderate threat

[EDIT: some highlights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Lion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_Wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre-toothed_cat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctodus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_Mammoth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Bison
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&issue_id=41&articles_id=232 ]


Charon

[Jackal1]

Ever see a really big Bear? Ever see one in the wild?
Once you do the thought of ever hunting one with a handgun goes right from your mind.

LMAO
No it doesn`t.
For the hunter it is an enticement.

[Jackal1]

I have no problem with open carry.
My belief is things would be better all around if you wanted to carry, carry in any fashion you desire.
In other words...pack or don`t pack. Up to you.