Hans-Joachim Marseille

[Rich46yo]

I didn't realize rich, your correct on german aircraft keeping accurate records - however I didn't realize germans as a whole kept such good records. I just had the idea between propaganda and edited records come to mind.

Then again I live in USA where every news station pumps out its own propaganda (CNN prime example)

No doubt Goebbels et al had his hand in some things. But the truth is when the Allies took over Germany they found entire troves of accurate records regarding almost everything that happened in the war. From concentration camps, to friendly deaths, to vehicles/planes lost, to who did what and when. Also this was a very professional military machine in Germany. One that didn't hand out medals easily. Thats why I believe Hitler actually earned his WW-l Iron Cross as did any other soldier, sailor, or airman, that was awarded medals for bravery. Many dont realize it but it was very unusual for a trench corporal, who ran messages, to be awarded an Iron Cross for bravery. There really can be no doubt Hitler was a very brave soldier his ownself.

The Nazis inherited a very professional and capable bureaucracy. And like he did with the Prussian Army elite, and the rich Industrialists, Hitler made his peace with the Bureaucrats. Hitler could be very practical when he wanted to be. But even still the keeping of accurate records, indeed counting and organizing everything, is part of the German psyche. Its part of the reason a small, almost landlocked, middle European country almost conquered the world.

Yaknow Douglas MacArthur gave Lyndon Baines Johnson, yes LBJ, a Silver Star during the war because he took one training flight in a bomber and because LBJ wanted one. This is one of our highest military honors and MacArthur gave this clown one cause MacArthur was ever the astute Politician and figured he might need a friend down the road.

I doubt such a thing could have happened in the German armed forces. Just a thought to share.

[Krusty]

Germans were not perfect in record keeping. There were more than a few examples of score padding by wingmen and small groups of officers.


As a whole, however, Marseille's kills have been verified by allied loss reports.


P.S. Rich, I'm only going to say this once. Lose some of your naivete. Please. I mean that in the most constructive way.

[Messiah]

I remember reading somewhere its on wikipedia so not sure if its exactly accurate based on a webfind:

"Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[35] said of this fight:
All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per kill)."

Whether this is correct or not, this is one amazing fate to pull off, especially as the conditions apply him alone vs that many.

This guy had the balls to fly the way I do IRL, hats off.

[Yeager]

Not many people know of his success because he didn't survive the war.

Bingo 

[2bighorn]

109F used 360 rounds (indicating he had more left?)

MG 151 + 2 x MG 17 or MG 151/20 + 2 x MG 17

Alone, but wingman is describing the fight.  What am I missing here?

"Marseille "worked" alone in combat keeping his wingman at a safe distance so he would not collide or fire on him in error."

[lambo31]

There's a story about Marseille among other WWII Aces in this book. I don't know how accurate the stories are but the book is great for bathroom reading.

 http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invid=9463805804&author=jackson+robert&browse=2&qwork=2304375&title=Fighter+pilots+of+world+war+II&qsort=&page=1

[humble]

That's exactly what im trying to find more sources on, He attacked alone but a wingman watched? I don't get that as wingmen ALWAYS follow the lead, 360 rounds, im curious what an average burst of 60 rounds would be, 8mm and 20mm wise.

Edited:

Its not uncommon to have a pilot standout as an excellent shot, I've read over years some pilots having amazing accuracy, where others had horrible aim at best. Richard bong a prime example - his gunnery was pretty poor, and pilots like Werner Voss during world war 1 would target engines of the enemy aircraft to maximize damage and use less ammo count.

He had very strong skills as an acrobatic pilot and pioneered alot of what we take for granted in AH. Very few real WW2 pilots worked throttle and flaps or engaged in true dogfighting. Normal tactics were basically what we would consider "B&Z" tactics in AH. Accordingly the luftberry was a somewhat normal defensive tactic with a formation circling nose to tail when threatened with surerior planes/numbers.

In the incident mentioned the South African Tomahawks (P-40's) entered a luffberry when they were bounced and he worked the circle alone with his wingman (and others) keeping watch from above. Basically he was flying a set of yoyo's thru the formation targeting a plane on eash pass thru. His flying was so good that his gunnery was amazing. He basically placed each burst right on the front fuselage walking back to the cockpit. He killed a much higher % of his adversaries then any other pilot on any side. He was probably the best "dogfighter" of the war on any side.

[Rich46yo]

Germans were not perfect in record keeping. There were more than a few examples of score padding by wingmen and small groups of officers.


As a whole, however, Marseille's kills have been verified by allied loss reports.


P.S. Rich, I'm only going to say this once. Lose some of your naivete. Please. I mean that in the most constructive way.

Krusty Im only going to say this once. Your a Goof! And I mean that in a most negative way.

Once again you talk out your arse, without backing it up with facts, in a stupid attempt to try and be cute with saying something personal.

[Bucky73]

Krusty...how about some reference's to your "loss reports". Or are we to "blindly believe" you, as you put it a few months back when we were talking about John Glenns comments on the history channel?

I'm not saying this guy wasn't a great pilot but....You bashed me for believing what John Glenn actually said himself and yet you "blindly" believe this?

So, to clarify......history channel= made up garbage    and    YOUTUBE= gospel

Show me some proof and I will eat crow.

[Krusty]

Bucky, I never said jack about youtube. I barely glanced as his links. When it's so garbled and badly done that it's got green checkers throughout the opening scenes I don't bother watching it.

So, your only comment is that you have a bruised ego from something I said in the past? Good. That means you have nothing to add and I can ignore you


Where's the old rolleyes when you need it?

[Motherland]

Bucky, I never said jack about youtube. I barely glanced as his links. When it's so garbled and badly done that it's got green checkers throughout the opening scenes I don't bother watching it.

The beginning and ending 30 seconds or so are screwed up but everything in between is fine. They're good films actually.
BTW we still have the

[Krusty]

Not the same, motherland, not the same.

[Bucky73]

As a whole, however, Marseille's kills have been verified by allied loss reports.

YOU are the one that said don't "blindly believe"......not me

Don't turn it around. Just show me the "loss reports"

Anybody can spew garbage and your proving that.

[Charge]

There are alleged examples of Germans overclaiming their victories in Northern front in Norway/Finland but those are based on Russian loss records. Somehow I have a feeling that the Russian squadron commanders rather lost planes in "accidents" than in combat and I have not seen any records of how many planes they received monthly as replacements and what was their serviceability rate. That would reveal if there really were cases of stat padding going on in northern LW. I believe there were but these were probably occasional.

I also think that it was a bit problematic for record keeping that they tried to have a reliable record of how many planes and other stuff the enemy had lost and at the same time the Nazi propaganda engine wanted big numbers that would look good in news reel.

-C+

[BnZ]

You've got to like a pilot who breaks formation in a training flight to land on a road and take a leak in front of a very surprised farmer...

I don't think Marseille is over-looked though, as German aces go he is one of the better known ones. Of course, the American general public doesnt' know much about Luftwaffe pilots...heck, most of them have never heard of the 56th FG! And the insipid propaganda machine being what it is, much of the hoi polloi probably considers the Luftwaffe pilots morally and millitarily equivalent to concentration camp guards.