your opinion about iraq withdrawl.

[RTHolmes]

I thought it would be best clear up my original post first before moving on to your questions. also I'm a little confused by your reference to "socialist programs." I'm actually English and although we have state welfare, unions, minimum wages, a bill of rights etc (as the US has) we would be accurately described a capitalist country. (A socialist might even argue that the US gets a higher score purely because of the extent of union power.)

and for the record I have no fear or prejudice against the US, nor have I ever suggested that the US is stupid and evil.

the UK certainly doesnt have a problem with the principle of intervention in foreign affairs, the reason we are broke now is because we spent our entire imperial fortune fighting 2 world wars, on foreign soil, because it was the right thing to do.

as for withdrawl, I'd have to echo NavyOne's post, and add that we have a strong moral obligation to the people of Iraq to see this through.

[Dago]

Honestly, I think that there are a lot of valid points here, but here are some basic facts, as I have seen them.

1.  If we were to do a mass withdrawl, Iran would probably just move in and take the land in Iraq that they used to claim..
2.  An already unstable region would probably erupt into all out war, to include Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel.
3.  The world would condemn the US even further, as Iraqi tribal factions slaughtered each other in moves for control of the regions they wanted to claim as their own.

Now, this is all just conjecture, at this point, but there are a LOT of eyes in the Mid East, looking for any excuse to justify their own "holy wars against all those who do not believe the exact same things they do.

Also, theres a kind of damned if we do, damned if we don't situation going on in Iraq, with US forces.. Theres a TON of misconception out there, that we are somehow responsible for millions of deaths of Iraqi civilians, where its actually the fundamentalists doing 98% of the killing over there.
So, world opinion is that we are wrong for being there, but we really cant leave yet, because we actually are the only forces keeping a lot of the crazies from going all out..
As far as withdrawl, I think a very SLOW trickling out of troops and equipment is the right thing to do, as the Iraqi Police get trained and get better equipment..  They are starting to stand up to some of the extremists, now, because the moderate civilian population as a whole is getting very sick and tired of the kidnappings, suicide bombings, and other violence in the country.  People aren't hiding their support for the US nearly as much anymore, because frankly, they don't want to deal with living in chaos any more.

Just my opinion....

Well said Sir.

[bj229r]

hmmm different timezones don't really help the flow of a discussion do they. anyways, my original post was in answer to lazs question of why the rest of the world isn't rushing in to help sort out the mess in Iraq, i'll elaborate:

my point was that you shouldn't be surprised by this. during the invasion of Iraq, when there might have been a reasonable chance of the coalition achieving its objectives, how many of the 190ish member states of the UN provided real support to the coalition? by real support I mean troops in numbers. anyone can say its a good idea, real commitment is risking the lives of your citizens. I make it 3* (4 if you count a token Polish force of 200ish). not exactly overwhelming support.

the situation in Iraq is now way more complicated than in 2003, any country looking at getting involved in Iraq will see big bills and a steady stream of body bags. as well as improving their ranking on al-qaedas hitlist. not exactly tempting is it?

im not saying its right, im just saying i understand


*edit: I forgot about the Spanish. al-qaeda didnt. make it 4.

Forget about Iraq for a moment--it's understandable why many able countries wouldn't send troops there, but Afghanistan:

NOone can say Afghanistan is an illegal war, and we ask for 7 THOUSAND fighting men from the ENTIRE rest of the frikking world, and said world can barely come up with 3 thousand. Many countries in NATO simply refuse to spend the money to HAVE an army, many others only look at the cost, screw their obligations

[SD67]

While I've never been a fan of pulling out, withdrawal is always better than paying child support!

[Torque]

the bearingpoint hydrocarbon law will give the queen and uncle sam exclusive rights to 80% of iraqi's oil reserves for the next thirty years.

so... i'm guessing 29 years after the iraqis are forced to pass it... after all the wells are dry... the pullout will occur.

[lazs2]

holmes.... not to nit pic but the two world wars you fought were only on foreign soil because you knew that you were next.   and.. you were attacked.  As were we.

I don't want to get into colonialism here too much but that is hardly the same as benevolent.   Not too many countries look to england as being benevolent.   You are not vilified so much now tho because you have no real power not because you have been benevolent in the past.

As for socialism?  I would measure it on the size of government and how much it redistributes wealth.. while I am not in the least happy with our creeping socialism... it is nothing compared to your cradle to grave socialism.   Unions here are not strong.  save a few.. they have pretty much gone away..  many states are right to work states.   We may be catching up with you..  osamabama wants caps on profit and socialized medicine and a huge tax on gasoline...

That aside..   I can't believe the rest of the civilized world can't see the potential the situation in iraq presents for some much needed and long overdue solution to the problem of the middle east and it's ninth century barbarism.    It is gonna reach out and touch you guys long before it touches us.

It will be far worse than any world war so far because it will be fought from without and within.

We just can't win.. we stay out of your problems and we get blamed.. we get proactive and we get blamed... one can only conclude... sour grapes and envy are the motivators more than reason.

lazs

[RTHolmes]

Well, we didnt declare war in either instance because we were attacked, you're getting confused with the US involvement in WWII which was reactionary. WWI: invasion of Belgium and then France led to the declaration of war, WWII: invasion of Poland. neither preceeded by open hostilities between Germany and Britain. I never asserted the actions were benevolent, they were pre-emptive and pragmatic to protect our global interests. like I said, we dont have a problem with the principle.

Unfortunately I guess i'm with the rest of the civilised world on this, I cant see any obvious "potential the situation in iraq presents for some much needed and long overdue solution to the problem of the middle east and it's ninth century barbarism." I see an almost disastrous situation which at this point is more about damage limitation than a magic bullet to solve the world's problems.

[gunnss]

How about a standard intermodal shipping container, at worst you get it into port and pop it before the ship can be inspected, at best you put it on a truck and ship it to the desirered destination....Saying "They cant do that" is just head in the sand stuff. Our real defence is the allmost compleat lack of operational security in the region by our antagonists, they suffer from a "this is waay too cool to not talk about" mentality.

Regards,
Kevin

They're going to need a missile or bomber to get it here. Once they actually get a nuke I highly doubt they'll already have the technology to microsize it like Russia and the United States can. Fat Man and Little Boy were IIRC 10,000 lbs. You're not gonna fit that in a suitcase and sneak it in.

[59funkman]

Get them out ASAP...Our job is done...we as a country have to look at our own situation...we need to
look out for our own in this time of need!

+1

[lazs2]

holmes..  I would have to say that despite chamberlain..  you guys knew you were on hitlers hit list.   I would also say that socialism and not wars have made you the weak country you are today.. that and the fact the the civilized world (of which you are part) really frowns on imperialism and colonialism which were how you got powerful and wealthy in the first place.

As to iraq and the middle east.. at this point I would hope that you would see that Israel is the only shinning and modern thinking country in the region.. that it is the only one not rooted in ninth century barbarism.    I would hope that you would realize that building on that is good.. that turning Iraq into a democratic and free capitalistic country in the region with a growing economy and middle class would be a huge step in getting the people of the middle east out of their barbaric ninth century interpretation of a religion of "submit or die".

That.. while it may have not been wholly perfect in reason... it was still a good choice for a start.   That all it really lacked was a democratic government and fair constitution to make it into something that could join the ranks of the civilized world.

It is a great opportunity that you are blowing while you watch your countries decay from within and fill with the very same unassimilated ninth century barbarians that are the cause of all the problems over there.    You will watch them gain more and more power in your own countries as you try to appease them and pretend that you like it.   They will make no such pretense so far as you are concerned tho.   

I think you, and the other countries, are not helping because you are impotent in the face of your own problems and.. more sordid.. out of some hate born of envy that you have for the U.S.

At least.. that is what it looks like.

lazs

[RTHolmes]

this socialist thing is waaay OT. if you post a new topic, maybe "How the UK descended into fundamentalist socialism during the C20th while the US completely avoided it" I will happily discuss it with you, as it is it just comes across as UK-bashing. which I find curious as we are surely the US's closest ally? As for "not helping" we are the guys who drink and swear alot in funny accents while standing shoulder to shoulder with your guys over there. and who fly home in a bag when things dont work out. please dont forget that.

I dont really see Israel as a shining example of anything (except perhaps of how to dodge the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty) or particularly relevant to finding the best way forward in Iraq. I don't think anyone is disputing that the best thing for Iraq, the middle east as a whole, and the credibility of the coalition members is a stable, democratic, independent state. The real question is how is that best achieved. The more worrying question is if its possible at all.

[slipknot]

I'd like to say we should stay and create order, but I think that that's a near impossibility. With the partisan presence, and the local population being split ideologically between the Western Point of view and what can only be described as decidedly non-western, I fear it is inevitable that the US will only incur more and more hatred, and less and less ideoligical and political sympathy from the locals.

We ar enoit making their lives better, at this point, so their attitude should be fairly easy to predict. Sadly, it is this attitude that is steering their future. For one reason or another, we failed to win their hearts and minds. After that, it's only a question of how long we try to control them physically.

My suggest is get out while we can and take the fight to the source.

Or, as the original poster suggested, indirectly, just Nook the whole place to hell.

[RTHolmes]

i think you've nailed the problem there slipknot, we may still have a chance to pull this off but it will require some pretty radical changes of policy to build trust with the Iraqis, and that imo is the only way this could work.

[slipknot]

i think you've nailed the problem there slipknot, we may still have a chance to pull this off but it will require some pretty radical changes of policy to build trust with the Iraqis, and that imo is the only way this could work.

This is true... However, the failing with this is that their own troops, and police, being under American supervision, may be seen as an extension of the US force itself, rather than its own indiginous power. This, of course, may be exploited by the partisan/fanatic propaganda. If they view their own army and police force as a puppet of the invaders, that army or police force will be even more hated than the invaders themselves. Very much the same as a traitor is always viewed with more disdain than an enemy soldier.

This really is a war of ideology and indoctrination. Like it or not, we are trying to re-indoctrinate a group of people that has existed under the veil of religious and dictatorial oppression for a long time. What seems natural to us (freedom of choice, conviction, commerce, speech, etc...) is far from intuitive for many others.

We cannot seem to cross this cultural divide because what seems so obvious to us runs contrary to what seems obvious to them. This is perhaps the most compelling reason to stop tryin gto export freedom the way we do, and simply treat less than friendly nations as nothing more than reluctant but necessary trading partners.

[lazs2]

well.... It is not as complex as some would make it.   the bad guys.. the ninth century barbarians.. have a fairly large playground that is isolated from western thought..  On the one hand.. they can control their huge populations with an iron fist and make sure that their people stay rooted in barbarism.

On the other hand.. they can export it using modern methods.. they can send their people to the civilized world and still maintain a religious hold on them that keep them down and unassimilated.

The only way they can get away with all this is to own the whole middle east region except for Israel which.. they do their best to crush.. they are able to concentrate all their effort at this one and only serious threat to their maintaining such a hold in the region.   

The only logical way to fight them is to have areas of democratic freedom and capitalism based on human rights and constitutional rule.   The whole thing reaches a tipping point when people just like them (not just jews) start to live the good life of the middle class..  hell.. when there is a middle class to look at.

This is the best opportunity to achieve that in this region the world has ever seen and the rest of the world is pi###ing it away.   

Yes, I realize the problems other countries have.. of their own making or not.. but.. I still think a lot of the lack of support is due to fear and envy.     

lazs