your opinion about iraq withdrawl.

[Mojava]

 There are fanatics in every major religious organization. Here is example of recent Jewish extremists http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php. I think we need too step back and realize that the actions of the few are what galvanize our image of that society. I would say, the vast majority of people want to live in peace , raise there family and go on holidays. We need to get over our current xenophobic mindset.  We are the most powerful country in the world, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

[Shuckins]

Sirloin, I don't think what Bush and company told the public about Saddam's activities was a lie.  There was, undoubtedly, a degree of self-deception involved.  Saddam's use of chemical weapons against the Kurds had been well documented.  The intelligence agencies of various western nations  had issued reports stating that he was continuing his efforts to acquire wmds.  Those reports were believed by Bill Clinton, Al Gore, George W. Bush, and Tony Blair, among others.  Saddam's behavior in the months prior to the U.S. invasion did little to reassure those leaders that he was not up to his old tricks.  Sure, there were isolated voices that expressed doubts, but given the man's past history of deception and duplicity, who were these leaders going to believe?


Should we invade "sovereign" nations in order to remove tyrants from power?  That has always been the 800 pound gorilla in any discussion about the invasion of Iraq.  One could make the case that by doing so, we save the lives of those innocents who oppose his rule, but are powerless to oust him.  Certainly, many historians have made the argument that World War II's horrendous destruction and high body count could have been avoided if the western European powers had simply invaded Germany the first time Hitler violated the Versailles Treaty.  There are many who oppose that viewpoint, but until and unless we settle the question of whether or not we have an obligation to protect the lives of our fellow human beings living under the rule of a bloodthirsty despot, members of the left and the right in our country will continue to bash each other over the head about taking preemptive action like we did in Iraq.

CAP, we didn't put Saddam into power.  He was one of many Baathists who cooperated with the CIA during its operations in Iraq during the 1950s and 1960s.  Saddam seized power in a coup in 1979, after being one of the Baath party's top government officials for several years.  To give the devil his due, Saddam was instrumental in modernizing the Iraqi economy, advancing women's rights, mechanizing agriculture, and raising the living standards and income of the poor.  Like Mussolini, he made the trains run on time.  Certainly, the U.S. government used him to achieve their own ends, at a time when Iran was seen as our great enemy in the region...and certainly many U.S. companies did business with him....but we also traded with  the Nazis during the 1930s, BEFORE Hitler was seen as a threat.

So, let me just sum up by saying that, formulating a foreign policy in the Middle East is like walking through a mine field:  take the wrong step, and ...

[lazs2]

When it is the actions of a few we can afford to ignore it or at least.. to not generalize or paint with so broad a brush.

the muslim extremeist problem far exceeds every other extremest group combined tho.   It is part of a religion and is an organized group of people who have a culture of "submit or die" and a culture of suicide bombing or suicide raids. 

To compare them to any other terrorist group, in scope at least, is laughable and idiotic.

lazs

[ZetaNine]

There are fanatics in every major religious organization. Here is example of recent Jewish extremists http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php. I think we need too step back and realize that the actions of the few are what galvanize our image of that society. I would say, the vast majority of people want to live in peace , raise there family and go on holidays. We need to get over our current xenophobic mindset.  We are the most powerful country in the world, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

your thinking is flawed

[RTHolmes]

hmmm different timezones don't really help the flow of a discussion do they. anyways, my original post was in answer to lazs question of why the rest of the world isn't rushing in to help sort out the mess in Iraq, i'll elaborate:

my point was that you shouldn't be surprised by this. during the invasion of Iraq, when there might have been a reasonable chance of the coalition achieving its objectives, how many of the 190ish member states of the UN provided real support to the coalition? by real support I mean troops in numbers. anyone can say its a good idea, real commitment is risking the lives of your citizens. I make it 3* (4 if you count a token Polish force of 200ish). not exactly overwhelming support.

the situation in Iraq is now way more complicated than in 2003, any country looking at getting involved in Iraq will see big bills and a steady stream of body bags. as well as improving their ranking on al-qaedas hitlist. not exactly tempting is it?

im not saying its right, im just saying i understand




*edit: I forgot about the Spanish. al-qaeda didnt. make it 4.

[SirLoin]

Sirloin, I don't think what Bush and company told the public about Saddam's activities was a lie.  There was, undoubtedly, a degree of self-deception involved.  Saddam's use of chemical weapons against the Kurds had been well documented.

I don't want to get into the forged documents from Africa thing(and the White House leak)Like I said,it's to their credit in finishing the job,correcting the mistake of GWB's father in not going in.

BTW,Saddam's use of Gas vs Iran is also well documented.

[68Hawk]

Iran isn't as big a threat as it has been made out to look like by some in the media lately.  It will be a big problem if we react to it in the wrong way, but for now prudence must be our guide.  Historical parallels with the appeasement of Hitler seem apt, but are largely overstretching.  If Iran invades someone, genuinely, this will be different.  The mistake was made in invading Iraq of not looking forward to the aftermath after we creamed their militry defenses.  Big Mistake!  If we don't learn from this and do it again we'll be doubly foolish.  There are far more important geopolitical considerations to be taken into account than just people waving big sticks at each other.

The line about 'wiping Israel off the map' has been largely misquoted.  He said that the people should be resettled elsewhere and that the state of Israel should be removed.  I don't necessarily agree with this, but he didn't say that everyone in Israel should be killed.  Is Holocaust denial stupid?  Sure, its retarded, but remember that he's playing to a political base too.  I remember one of our own leaders trying to retake toast from the French. 

Overreacting is the worst thing we can do.  The Middle East is volatile enough.  We as a country have to learn that we can't always get our way and we need to work with others and sometimes accept things that we don't like.  This is the heart of the problem.  I don't mean to be a bleeding heart about this, and I'll definatly use the M4 sitting next to me whenever need be, but sticks and carrots must be used together.

I know Iran has been supporting hezbollah and making a lot of waves internationally, but neither have we or Israel been blameless in the medling game.  Pissing off more people than are already pissed at us is the worst thing we could do.  Let's not do it.

[Dago]

I don't have either the time or inclination to read all the posts in this thread, but I did notice an abundance of "just pull out and leave now" type comments.

Does this seem amazingly short sighted to anyone else besides me?  Does anyone else feel that for whatever reason we went in there, it would be a phenomenally huge mistake to just pull out and leave before the Iraqis were fully able to control the country themselves?  Surely I can't be the only one here who is pretty sure just dropping everything and pulling out would just sentence Iraq into a spiral downward and becoming a huge breeding and training ground for terrorists?

I know the Harry Reids and Pelosi types are very afraid we might succeed, and are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of success, but come on, are we that short sighted?

[68Hawk]

Option 3

Iraq kicks us out....

We can wash our hands, they take it into theirs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7452853.stm

Good riddance to the problem.

Not sure if this is a good solution, but it will be interesting to see how this angle plays out.

[MoeRon]

As the last troop leaves, we leave President Bush there with a mini-14.   

[lazs2]

holmes..  I understand the time zone thing does screw up the flow but... I didn't really think you had answered me except to dismiss my questions.  I think your latest response is more of a... well.. response.

I "understand" too why other countries are not rushing in to help.  As you say.. body bags and expense.   I think you overstate the body bags since it is not really a costly war in that respect and.. every one of your soldiers killed or wounded would be highly motivated volunteers.   

The expense gets to the heart of it.. most of you are broke because of socialist programs but... I think it is short sighted.   Your last best chance to do something to resolve the whole festering middle east thing is now.  I think that it is more even than money..  I think that you all have a large muslim population that you fear.  You fear riots and protests more than body bags of soldiers.   

I also think that to an extent.. you are unwilling to admit that  the US is not stupid and evil and that you should have got on board from the beginning (you did to an extent in england). 

It baffles me that the rest of the world would allow us to just walk away if that is what ends up happening.  It would make more sense to give some support.. even political but more with troops and supplies.   We are doing what no UN without us could ever do.   What we are doing is best for the world and, especially for civilized countries.

You guys seem to be taking a huge risk on blowing your last best hope for a middle east solution with your fear and prejudice against the U.S.

lazs

[Elfie]

If the government is tyrannical then it's the peoples job to over throw it, not ours. The United States did it ~230 years ago.

The US didn't do it without help.

[DPQ5]

Well my opinion is that if we withdraw now, while Iraq is still week a country such as Iran might attack.







Plus remember what hapened when we withdrawed from Vietnam

[NavyOne1978]

Honestly, I think that there are a lot of valid points here, but here are some basic facts, as I have seen them.

1.  If we were to do a mass withdrawl, Iran would probably just move in and take the land in Iraq that they used to claim..
2.  An already unstable region would probably erupt into all out war, to include Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel.
3.  The world would condemn the US even further, as Iraqi tribal factions slaughtered each other in moves for control of the regions they wanted to claim as their own.

Now, this is all just conjecture, at this point, but there are a LOT of eyes in the Mid East, looking for any excuse to justify their own "holy wars against all those who do not believe the exact same things they do.

Also, theres a kind of damned if we do, damned if we don't situation going on in Iraq, with US forces.. Theres a TON of misconception out there, that we are somehow responsible for millions of deaths of Iraqi civilians, where its actually the fundamentalists doing 98% of the killing over there.
So, world opinion is that we are wrong for being there, but we really cant leave yet, because we actually are the only forces keeping a lot of the crazies from going all out..
As far as withdrawl, I think a very SLOW trickling out of troops and equipment is the right thing to do, as the Iraqi Police get trained and get better equipment..  They are starting to stand up to some of the extremists, now, because the moderate civilian population as a whole is getting very sick and tired of the kidnappings, suicide bombings, and other violence in the country.  People aren't hiding their support for the US nearly as much anymore, because frankly, they don't want to deal with living in chaos any more.

Just my opinion....

[CHECKERS]

finish it in Iran and Syria....