Author Topic: Effective Guns Range  (Read 1860 times)

Sorrow[S=A]

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 1999, 08:51:00 PM »
Pyro, I think many of the complaints would end promptly if the ZOOM effect was turned down. As it is now the ability to zoom until the plane is 3-4x what it is without allows too much sniping at long range. If they were only allowed the first 2 or 3 levels that we have now they would be very very hard put to deflect and aim properly at 800+ yds.

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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 1999, 09:21:00 PM »
Sorrow: I never use zoom to snipe my shots from longer distance, simply because it shakes some and gets better view at tracers without zoom...
When I use zoom, I do use it only to check angle of plane if I really can't see it against the ground, then I unzoom back and shoot  
When I used zoom to try better shots, my accuracy dropped, then I quit using it, accuracy pops up again.

chisel

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 1999, 12:57:00 AM »
You do realize that Zoom makes things closer to real-life size.

I almost always use zoom when shooting (have it set up with about a 40-45 degree FOV). Why be shooting at a speck when you could be shooting at an aircraft?

BTW I almost never pull the trigger at ranges over 400 usually under 250. 1x20mike mike doesnt cut it for long range spray and pray. Especially with that generic dispersion model.

Used to like closing to within 50-100yrds in WBs find that too scary here. Manuvers are too quick and they DO fill the windscreen.

Put in gun jamming! Not random but from holding the trigger to long and maybe G-load.
 

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #48 on: December 14, 1999, 01:33:00 AM »
I believe Pyro explained it best.

Real numbers and physics are modeled. If you get hit at an "impossible" range or deflection angle, better look for answers elsewhere...enemy experience, luck, net lag, own mistakes etc.

Just model them as they were, please no playability adjustments.

Offline Laika

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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 1999, 04:19:00 AM »
>How do you tailor the sim to fit what you read though? Who is that based on <

It should be based on the "median" of WWII accounts of gunnery kill ranges, If the real WWII aces said "once I put in a tour in the P51 I could make 800yd kills without too much trouble" I wouldn’t have a problem with the way things are now....But they didn’t.


>the guys who's been playing for a little while or the guy who's got thousands of hours under his belt? It's all relative, that's why I say ask some newbies how easy they think the gunnery is.<

This doesn’t have anything to do with "old hands ver newbies", if anything it will make it easier for the newbies because they wont get zapped at long range by a "ace". Newbies are probably getting jacked off wondering why they cant kill at long range as well. I don’t think things need changing at the closer distances, we just need to make it much harder to get those D650+ kills (as per real WWII ?)


>>ZOOM<<
If we get rid of the zoom function guys with 14-15inch screens will get a handicap compered to someone with a 20inch+ screen... If you think the zoom function is the problem you are missing the point here.


>Real numbers and physics are modelled. If you get hit at an "impossible" range or deflection angle, better look for answers elsewhere...enemy experience, luck, net lag, own mistakes etc....Just model them as they were, please no playability adjustments.<

WRONG ! (sorry Hristo, no offence intended) If they were modelled as they were this topic never would have come up !!  There is no way that a good gunnery model can be made from "paper data" only and I’m willing to bet there isn’t a WWII fighter left in the world that still has its original functioning guns so we will never know for sure. There are "sooo" many real life variables that a sim cant account for. Forget the facts and figures for a mo and think about what really happened (if they wanted to kill they got close, not spray & pray at long range)  not what a “fact” sheet tells you 50yrs after its all over. I’ve been a shooter since I was in my teens and on paper my guns will do wonderful things, but in the real world it don’t work out.

I know this is still a beta and I should probably shut up until the other stuff (damage model etc) gets sorted out but I feel I must put my 2 cents forward as many people don’t even see the problem, maybe they think they could out shoot the real aces of WWII ?

Pyro, for all my squeaking I feel you guys are doing a great job, and when it comes time to put my money where my mouth is I’ll have my credit card ready…keep it coming  

laika


Offline hitech

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 1999, 08:05:00 AM »
A Challaenge.

I would like to know 1 thing. How many times have each of you got a kill at 800 yards or more. I realy don't care how many times you have been killed at that range i just want to know how many kills you have done. I for one can not think of 1 kill ive gotten at that range.

And I would like for you to back it up now that we have a film viewer.

HiTech
HiTech

kjb

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 1999, 01:37:00 PM »
This isn't meant as a flame butt to those who "claim" that the gunnery model isn't accurate ought to tell HT that if he changes the gunnery model to suit them, that they will quit flying when they get shot down.  i mean if you want to compare it to RL then play it like RL.  I know if i were a pilot in WWII i would'nt have wasted my ammo on longer shots either.  i mean when the outcome is death if your wrong you darn sure better do it right the first time.  Right now we don't have to worry about gun jams if we pull more than a couple of G's, or over heating the barrel, random gun jams, the list goes on. I'm sure one reason they got so close was to macth maneuvers so they knew when to shoot. Also they wanted to return home. Do i think the gunnery model if off, not a bit, if you want someone to model an innaccurate sim go play brand AW.  But leave this to the guys who know what thier doing (and doing a fine job i might add). It sounds like you guys like brand W gunnery better, well go play it. I would rather have a true model of how it was not some porked to play sim. Another thing about the guns, ya know they are fixed to a 8,000lb platform flying in a straight line and what they are shooting at is also flying in a line. It's not anything like shooting from a moving vehicle unless you have your Rifle mounted to the car and only shooting straight ahead while on a smooth road. And that's not so hard to hit targets that way. Well thers's my .01 on the subject. Feel free to flame away, but not until you can prove HT is wrong. And i've read nothing to disprove them here or on that sight that was posted.
          KJB
p.s. this also a reply to help towards my member status  .

Offline Pyro

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 1999, 10:28:00 PM »
I too would like to see the films of this purported long range gunnery.  A picture's worth a thousand words.

War without death is like poker without money.  It is just a game.



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Offline janneh

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« Reply #53 on: December 14, 1999, 11:38:00 PM »
HiTech, I must admit, I've done some frustrated spraying against approx 800-1000 runstang in my La-5. In best case I've seen some hits, but that's all,  those hit's are of course 20mm's hits...

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #54 on: December 15, 1999, 12:48:00 AM »
650 yards is my longest kill.  It was a B-17 flying straight and level engaging a bog on its 12oc.

Vast majority are 300 yards and closer.

BTW, I have stopped use Zoom for the most part and my deflection accuracy is up.  

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Mino

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #55 on: December 15, 1999, 07:48:00 AM »

-------------------------
Where this fails is that the people who match themselves up to their historical counterparts are totally out of proportion in the amount of practice that they've had at their respective tasks. For example, just in the past few weeks since the tour was reset, Mitsu has fired over 220,000 rounds in combat. How many real pilots have ever fired that much ordnance?
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Pyro,

Perhaps the reasons why the WWII pilots did not make 650+ yds kills where because they did not have an neon sign over the enemy plane wich told the how far away it was. . .

// -nr-1-
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac

Offline Jekyll

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« Reply #56 on: December 15, 1999, 06:24:00 PM »
 
Quote
I for one can not think of 1 kill ive gotten at that range.

Umm HT, how many times have you opened fire at 800yds range???  I mean, its a bit like a guy saying he cannot hit a target with a bomb from 15,000 feet, because he always bombs from 10,000    I usually wait till about 500yds myself, and have no trouble at all getting kills on maneuvering targets at 400yds plus.

On the other hand, I've lost wings/tail numerous times when the con on my 6 is showing D1.2

Maybe just REALLY bad netlag??    

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[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-15-1999).]

Offline Jekyll

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Effective Guns Range
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 1999, 06:26:00 PM »
 
Quote
I for one can not think of 1 kill ive gotten at that range.

Umm HT, how many times have you opened fire at 800yds range???  Its a bit like a guy saying he can't hit a target with a bomb at 15,000 feet, because he always bombs from 10,000.  I usually wait till about 500yds myself, and have no trouble at all getting kills on maneuvering targets at 400yds plus.

On the other hand, I've lost wings/tail numerous times when the con on my 6 is showing D1.2

Maybe just REALLY bad netlag??  



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Offline ra

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« Reply #58 on: December 15, 1999, 10:11:00 PM »
HT or Pyro:

How big are the bullets being modeled?  Does a .50 cal round have a 1/2 inch radius, or is it modeled some other way?  I ask because even when I take wild snap shots I often see pings register, so I was one of those who assumed that the gunnery model was too easy.  

I hope the target doesn't have a <gag> hit bubble  


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Offline Hristo

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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 1999, 12:40:00 AM »
Here's some 190 vs P 51 feedback from the arena:

The P 51 is such a great HO machine because of the .50s, not despite of them.

Their effective range, velocity and relatively flat trajectory make P 51D superior jouster to 190, IMO.

Judging by numerous sorties in AH 190, 4 MG 151/20, it is a waste of ammo to fire them at ranges longer than 350 yards. Of course some shells would hit, but rarely it will do any significant  damage. Dispersion is simply that great.

On the other hand, I have seen dedicated P 51 jousters in action. Preparing for HO at d25-30, opening fire at d12 (my FE), and I was damaged before we passed (on my FE). Thankfully to net lag was, I was able to deliver deadly hits to them, after opening fire at some d4-5. Usually I was dewinged at d2.

Now I avoid HO against P 51s and Spits in 190. If it is historical....hmm, I don't know.


But for real dispersion freaks, you should fly MK 108 equiped 109 ! Very hard to hit, d3 is usually max range for dead 6 shots, snapshots are an art of itself, but when you connect.....well, something about that feeling when you nail someone with 90 degrees deflection shot of a 30mm        

Reminds me of throwing rocks at a running cat    

Everything must be planed, opponent moves must be anticipated greatly in advance. Now add compression at high speeds and nose bounce at low speeds, relatively poor 109 down elevator (hmmm !!), mostly poor 109 roll.....you get the picture.

Dead 6 shots should be avoided, in fact. If the opponent does even moderate turn and you follow, 30mm will fall behind him. In HO he will probably fly through the 30mm stream. What counts are planform shots, usually after break turns. Split S can also be hit (by snapshot, not tracking).

Buffs can also be brought down, but it seems slightly harder in latest version.

After MK 108, every gun feels like a laser. Still, I like the MK 108 in 109 nose. Makes you work for the shot. 1 kill per sortie feels like a 3 kill sortie in most other planes.


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-16-1999).]