July FSO, Der Zeite Blitz: 1945

[Odee]

Maybe with such fast planes and large numbers, ease up some on the +60 rule to give the planners some more room?

  I have to agree, in as much that on first reading the rules and set up, that a lot of Allied players are gonna scream fits...  Much like they are now.  And that will put a damper on the number of Allied players for this FSO 

[Guppy35]

My tuppence 'orth:

Dominant plane in this one = P47N

I'd be curious as to your reasoning?

[Jester]

My tuppence 'orth:

Dominant plane in this one = P47N

You must have been driving a different one than I was.     Unless you are flying on the edge of SPACE the 47N isn't anything but a TUGBOAT.

If I had to fly a Jugg think I would prefer the D-25.

 

[Stoney]

I never said the Allies couldn't cross the Channel, I just stated that I didn't want to see folks strafing 262's on the runway.  You catch 'em on final, that's one thing--shooting them while they taxi is another.

Second, there will be ample time for the Ar-234's to get to their objectives within T+60.  A fully loaded Ar-234 is capable of a 6.5 mile/minute speed at 10,000 feet.  At just under 17,000 feet, they can go even faster, approaching 7 miles a minute.  That means you're covering a sector in 3-4 minutes.  With a climb and form up thrown in, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't fly at least 250 miles and be over the target by T+60.

As always, if a portion of the setup creates an imbalance, I will adjust for frames 2 and 3.  If there's too many 262's, we'll lower the number.  Regardless, appreciate the discussion and look forward to an exciting event.

[Halo46]

Just in case ... looks like this might be needed.

[Delirium]

I just stated that I didn't want to see folks strafing 262's on the runway.  You catch 'em on final, that's one thing--shooting them while they taxi is another.

I'd do the same thing the Allies did in WWII; I'd put roving fighter around the area of the 262 bases to prevent them from getting into the air. The Germans knew this and protected their 262 squadrons with 109s and 190s and often some of the biggest air battles of that period of the war were centered around these airfields.

My questions are;

Why would you want to eliminate the Allies really only chance of catching a 262 that isn't a complete fool?

Why would you want to eliminate those great air battles around those 262 airfields?

Are you going to limit the 262s/Ar234s to 1 or 2 fields, and are you going to allow them to hotpad anywhere?

[33Vortex]

Alright then, in order to get enough allied players, take away some of our 262s (maybe cut the # in half) and allow the allies to pursue to their home bases. We'd still kick your behinds.

[/sarcasm]

[moot]

So are you suggesting that the Axis will completely dominate in kills and score?


Care to make it interesting?

I wouldn't bet on either.. On paper (i.e. with perfectly disciplined players in them), 64 jets can probably single-handedly disrupt any plan the allies come up with, if they're in the right place at the right time.  That's the only thing I'd guess at..  We'll see in a few weeks.

[Krusty]

Okay, first off I'm NOT a big fan of this what-if scenario. I don't like these kinds of things.

That said, folks are SERIOUSLY over-reacting to the effectiveness of a 262.

"I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will.  If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s."

"64 jets can probably single-handedly disrupt any plan the allies come up with"

Not likely in the least.

It doesn't matter how WELL the plane is flown, it won't be effective. The only advantage the 262 has (if well flown) is that it can't be shot down. That doesn't mean it will ever finish its objective, that it will ever get any kills, ever have air superiority. It just means it can disengage (if flown properly) and run away.

That's not even assuming it can land safely without being vulched.

I've been flying 262s more in the past few months. When dogfighting in them, you need a target that is already engaged with others. Even the slightest evasives will spoil your shot if the 262 is at high speed (which it needs to be) and even a minor miscalculation can lead to the target craft getting a snapshot on you as you whiz past. Couple that with the very bad ballistics of the Mk103 cannons and you have to get in CLOSE for a point-blank kill (not something the 262 can do most times).

This is at low alts. At alt it's even worse. I fought 3x p51ds in the MA last night at 20-25k. All the P51s would do is HO me and all I could do is miles-wide gentle turns or else they'd close to within "kill range" (d800) whereas I was well out of range at d400. The plane is a frakkin' PIG at this alt. It cannot reach 30k. I've tried in the MA and in past FSOs. It cannot fly that high in practical flight, let alone combat.

Squad-v-squad is different than 1-v-1 sure, but the overall performance handicaps of the 262 means that having 64 of them is going to hurt the axis more than the allies, simply because that's 64 planes that CAN'T get the job done, whereas slower planes COULD get it done. Squad-v-squad you're going to get a lot of 6k extensions, because at 25k you need at least 5k to do a high-G-180 turn, and then BARELY line up in time for your enemy to whiz past you (you barely have time to HO in essence).


For everyone freaking out about the 262, I see they are all doing so from the allied perspective. I tell you what, if I were the axis CO I'd be freaking out even worse!

[humble]

Viewing this from an FSO perspective I think its allies in walk...

The arado's will take tremendous losses unless they have a great plan and can "sneak" them in. The use of manual calibration will make a solid "IP run" manditory...with no defensive fire (of merit) the arado's are going to be sitting ducks to 30k formations of P-47N's and ponies...

The turbines seem exceptionaly fragile and I can see literally 100% of the arados having some type of engine problems by the time they are finished the inward run/IP run...no question the jets (both types) will be able to exit the immediate combat zone relatively easily but the turbines sieze very quickly and I'd venture that very few will actually RTB (alot can/will ditch) if they get crippled. With the shorter icon range the 262's will be less detectable then in a "MA" enviorment but the flip side is they will get bounced alot more. I think at 30K the 47's will be very dangerous to a co-alt 262...with the bomber stream lower and the assumed allied objectives as well the 262's will be engaging in the 10-20k alt range and very vulnerable IMO to higher flights of jugs and ponies...

I'm also curious about overspeeding issues in the 262's, IMO its a lot easier to lock up a 262/bust parts then it is a jug or pony....I think the 262's will also out lawn dart the allies...as SLED mentioned the axis doesnt really have the tools for the job.

[Krusty]

Predicting 100% loss rate on Arados, and 100% loss rate for 262s if they engage in a fight.

Outside of bomber hunting they are useless. Even with bomber hunting missions, all it takes is a single con 1k behind them to keep them from turning back to make another pass at bombers, as well.

[RATTFINK]

VF-6 Kämpfer Schwadron can't wait

<<S>>

[Dantoo]

I'd be curious as to your reasoning?

It's based on the assumption that they will be used up high.
First let's deal with the 262 bogeyman.
I've had the dubious pleasure of leading a squad of 262s in FSO in the past.  Once you are forced to fight above 25k it's less fight than flight.  If your engagements are above 30k with a spit 14 or a p47n you are simply unable to fight them.  You have practically no rate of climb, your turn radius is huge and if you try and dive away you start to lock up quick.  Wings come off if you pull hard.  To get 262s out of the way, just send a bunch of p51s or jugs up to 35k and have them dive in.  The 262 can just bore big holes straight ahead in the sky up there.  If it turns or slows it's dead.  It can dive away at a shallow angle but then it has to get back up somehow.  If it zooms, a 450 mph piston fighter picks it off.  If it extends it takes sectors and sectors to first climb to, then catch the bunch it was after.  Problem is when it does catch them it's back where it was being forced to dive away again by a diving prop plane.  It's not DGS where the buffs were made to stay 24k or lower and together in a slow moving group.  Its opposing all single engine planes this time.

A P47N can do what, maybe 460+ above 30k?  Up there it can turn.  It can climb.  It can really dive and if it wants to, zoom.  A Spit14 might be nearly as good but the jug possibly has the edge. 

Now of course there will be ground attack requirement for both sides and the allies will have to use jabos.  If the jug is used as a jabo then it won't shine.  Used as a high level escort it will.

The planeset indicated for this FSO indicates that quite some thought about altitude is in order.  The worst performers up high will be the arado, tempest and Spit 16. There's no reason to put them up there other than to protect them.   If they are traveling up high then the Allies do gather to themselves an advantage.

I believe that CICs will have to think hard about the packages that they put together and how they can use the complementary abilities of the planeset they are bequeathed.  How they reach, attack and defend targets will be well outside the MA "norm". For example: How do you escort bombers that are faster than the escort?

I smile at the idea of a group of 60 262s offensively sweeping over a target.  What good will they do in such a sweep if there is a bunch of P47s sitting at 35k above it?  Would those jugs be able to defend that target up there? Maybe.  No reason for them to come down until jabos or bombers come through and then they will come down fast. Timing and nerve would be tested.  Fascinating possibilities in Ta512 and P47 fights above 30k for alternative sweeps.

Would be interesting to see the 262 used in the "blitz bomber" role.  Of course here they can only use their cannon but quite valid to use 262 in ground attack. (Bomb rule?)  That would get the cap down fast and would make for a really really absorbing battle.  They would just have to hope there wasn't a whole bunch of spit 16s down low and a group of P47s up high.  That's what a well thought out sweep would do wouldn't it? Remove that sort of squeeze?

Planes attacking Axis targets won't be terribly vulnerable to 262s.  I can't see a flight of Tempests at say 20 k being too afraid of 262s if they have an escort of p47n's at 30k.  Doras and 109Ks might make them nervous though.

So many wonderful possibilities, but in all of them P47Ns up high look to be an Axis nightmare from this far out.

[Stoney]

Apparently I should have clarified in the write-up, but the Allies will be defending each frame.  Each side will have 4 ground objectives and 4 fighter sweep objectives.  Only the Germans will have offensive ground targets.  For the Allies, the ground objectives are defensive.

[33Vortex]

Apparently I should have clarified in the write-up, but the Allies will be defending each frame.  Each side will have 4 ground objectives and 4 fighter sweep objectives.  Only the Germans will have offensive ground targets.  For the Allies, the ground objectives are defensive.

Crystal clear!