Wirblewind vs. Ostwind

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

This has probably been brought up a thousand times already, and for that I apologize, but the Wirblewind and the Ostwind shouldn't have the same ENY value.

It is much more difficult to destroy aircraft with an Ostwind, and while strafing Osties left you with a good chance of taking out the turret and surviving, Wirbles are simply murderous in competent hands.

Also, reducing the ENY on the Ostie would encourage their use (more perkies per kill) - at present they have virtually disappeared from the game.

- SEAGOON

[whiteman]

attack the wirbles in pairs or work on dropping bombs from 1.5 out.

[BnZ]

I have gone back to using the Ostwind more. I believe it stands a better chance of knocking down a heavier aircraft like an A-20 or B-25H at a range long enough to do you some good, and it has a longer range period. Can POTENTIALLY down an enemy a/c at 3K, as compared to the WWs max of 1.7K. Really, if you are trying to strafe a flak of any kind, this is a pretty dumb thing to do, you SHOULD be going down unless the flakker isn't looking or is having a bad aim day. Bombs are made for flaks.

True enough, there aren't enough people driving Ostis. I'm very glad to have a flakk that someone who doesn't use flaks constantly can shoot, and I think the danger WWs have added to flying around at tree-top level trying to strafe ground objects (Whether planes on the runway or GVs) is a 100% good thing. But I would like to see a few more Ostis, since WWs and Ostis are stronger in concert. So my plan would be to raise the ENY value of the Osti, maybe up to around 35-40. That would allow some GV point-racking for those who wanted to drive it. I would not like to see any situation where players might be ENYed out of a WW, or see it perked.

[Masherbrum]

attack the wirbles in pairs or work on dropping bombs from 1.5 out.

Huh?   Why?    It's the person in it, not the WW itself.   Roll an La7, climb to 5k, dive anywhere from 10' O to 2 O' high and a one-two second burst eliminates a turret on both GV models in question.   No bombs needed.   Climb back to 5k, pick another, rinse repeat.   I had Lazer in tears of laughter doing this.   Landed 9 of em.   

[Lusche]

I would not like to see any situation where players might be ENYed out of a WW

I would.
Simply because of its devastating effectiveness as a hording tool in town attacks. Not a lowering to a value like 5 or so, but I think 15 should be ok, compared to the Ostwind's 25.
That would result an a incentive to use Osties (more perks) and still guarrantee WW availability in most defensive situations, yet preventing literally dozends of WW's flooding towns of enemies that are already massively outnumbered.

Perking the WW however is not necessary.

[Masherbrum]

I would.
Simply because of its devastating effectiveness as a hording tool in town attacks. Not a lowering to a value like 5 or so, but I think 15 should be ok, compared to the Ostwind's 25.
That would result an a incentive to use Osties (more perks) and still guarrantee WW availability in most defensive situations, yet preventing literally dozends of WW's flooding towns of enemies that are already massively outnumbered.

Perking the WW however is not necessary.

Agree with you emphatically Lusche.   

[whiteman]

Huh?   Why?    It's the person in it, not the WW itself.   Roll an La7, climb to 5k, dive anywhere from 10' O to 2 O' high and a one-two second burst eliminates a turret on both GV models in question.   No bombs needed.   Climb back to 5k, pick another, rinse repeat.   I had Lazer in tears of laughter doing this.   Landed 9 of em.   

Huh? just advise for someone thats having a tough time killing them. nothing hard to understand, at least thats what i thought.

Why? like he said it's murderous in good hands. if you really don't want to get shot down thats just two ideas since you don't know who's in it.

I have no problem with them, disabled 5 in one run with a -4 Hog with just the 50's.

[waystin2]

Huh?   Why?    It's the person in it, not the WW itself.   Roll an La7, climb to 5k, dive anywhere from 10' O to 2 O' high and a one-two second burst eliminates a turret on both GV models in question.   No bombs needed.   Climb back to 5k, pick another, rinse repeat.   I had Lazer in tears of laughter doing this.   Landed 9 of em.   

One of my favorite victims is the lone wolf pilot that thinks they have the best way to strafe down a Wirbel all figured out.  The 9 WW must of had some seriously bad SA.  I take just as many Rook and Bish airplanes from the positions and angles you are describing as any other.  Teamwork or a tank is the only way to reliably take out a Wirbel.  One says "look at me", the other says "say hello to my little friend".  I do concede to a lowered ENY, but the actual I will leave up to the Hitech folks.  I do not think it should be lowered to stop hordes of town killers, instead it should be lowered because it is simply a more efficient airplane killer.

-Wirbel/Ostie God

[Masherbrum]

One of my favorite victims is the lone wolf pilot that thinks they have the best way to strafe down a Wirbel all figured out.  The 9 WW must of had some seriously bad SA.  I take just as many Rook and Bish airplanes from the positions and angles you are describing as any other.  Teamwork or a tank is the only way to reliably take out a Wirbel.  One says "look at me", the other says "say hello to my little friend".  I do concede to a lowered ENY, but the actual I will leave up to the Hitech folks.  I do not think it should be lowered to stop hordes of town killers, instead it should be lowered because it is simply a more efficient airplane killer.

-Wirbel/Ostie God

No.    What you don't realize is this, I'm no "two weeker in a Flak".    You're wrong on "what it takes", but you're entitled to think so.   Bad SA?   Nope, just pick the right angle.   

But what do I know right?   

[Zazen13]

The Ostwind's ENY rating is really a contrivance. When the ENY thingy was implimented it was really low (I believe 8 or 10). But, that made it virtually impossible for a country being penalized to effectively defend against vulchers, so it was raised to its current level after a week or two. This was before field ack, manned and un-manned, was increased. So, the fact that the Whirblewind and the Ostwind are the same really has nothing to do with their relative effectiveness vs. aircraft. They are both artificially high to ensure viable field defense.

I do agree that the Whirble is much easier to use. In my opinion ground based 37mm is one of the hardest things to master aiming with. But, having an AA vehicle that is "democratic" is good for the game, anything that allows your average player to push vulchers off fields makes overall gameplay better.

[BnZ]

Lusche:

If HTC gave us oodles of fixed, quad 20mm manned guns at air bases with the same durability as the WW/Osti, you COULD perk the WW for all I care.

Or you could make buildings much more durable against anything other than a bomb or a tank's main gun. Making the flyboys have to actually lug some ord to drop a town would make things more interesting and fun IMHO. Might make heavy bomber formations more important, with the attendant need for escort and interceptor flying.

I would.
Simply because of its devastating effectiveness as a hording tool in town attacks. Not a lowering to a value like 5 or so, but I think 15 should be ok, compared to the Ostwind's 25.
That would result an a incentive to use Osties (more perks) and still guarrantee WW availability in most defensive situations, yet preventing literally dozends of WW's flooding towns of enemies that are already massively outnumbered.

Perking the WW however is not necessary.

[Seagoon]

Personally, I'm not arguing that the Wirbie needs to be perked, or that we need to anything to its ENY. I'm just pointing out what we all appear to agree on, that the Wirbie is clearly much more lethal in the MA and that the Ostie has fallen into virtual disuse.

In light of that, lowering the ENY on the Ostie just makes sense. Personally, I wouldn't care if the ENY # was 5 or 10 points higher. It just shouldn't be the same as the Wirbie. At present, there is almost no reason to choose an Ostie anymore.

- SEAGOON

[BnZ]

Personally, I'm not arguing that the Wirbie needs to be perked, or that we need to anything to its ENY. I'm just pointing out what we all appear to agree on, that the Wirbie is clearly much more lethal in the MA and that the Ostie has fallen into virtual disuse.

In light of that, lowering the ENY on the Ostie just makes sense. Personally, I wouldn't care if the ENY # was 5 or 10 points higher. It just shouldn't be the same as the Wirbie. At present, there is almost no reason to choose an Ostie anymore.

- SEAGOON

I don't entirely disagree with you on the ENY issue, but...

The use or disuse of one of the two AA vehicles we have is unimportant and is not a good, logical, argument.

The P40E guarantees that the P40B sees almost no use. Unlike say, the P51D vrs the P51B, no one gets ENYed out of the P40E. And a difference in ENY for the Osti/Wirble still wouldn't do much either, since most of the time people would still be able to up whatever AA vehicle they want.

Perhaps Zazen or the Ltars could give a class on field-gunning. People still find themselvs HAVING to use field guns time to time, and if they had the skills in the FG, they might then be inclined to transfer themselves those skills to the Ostwind. I still believe that with skilled drivers, a mix of WWs and Ostwinds are more deadly to all possible airthreats than WWS alone.

[Zazen13]

Perhaps Zazen or the Ltars could give a class on field-gunning. People still find themselvs HAVING to use field guns time to time, and if they had the skills in the FG, they might then be inclined to transfer themselves those skills to the Ostwind. I still believe that with skilled drivers, a mix of WWs and Ostwinds are more deadly to all possible airthreats than WWS alone.

There's absolutely no difference between a FG and an Ostwind as far as aiming goes. The only difference is FG's have a slower rate of fire and the Ostwind 'shakes' a bit when you're firing making it a bit nauseating after awhile. The Ostwind is better than a FG in terms of lethality because there's less chance of a target threading the needle between your rounds even if your lead is perfect..

[Spikes]

Huh?   Why?    It's the person in it, not the WW itself.   Roll an La7, climb to 5k, dive anywhere from 10' O to 2 O' high and a one-two second burst eliminates a turret on both GV models in question.   No bombs needed.   Climb back to 5k, pick another, rinse repeat.   I had Lazer in tears of laughter doing this.   Landed 9 of em.  

Pretty cheap kills doing that.