Wow look at this "Unworthy of our heritage"

[angelsandair]

Usually I dont read the paper, but I opened it up to find this off the Austin "Un"American Statesman.....

Put the fireworks in storage. Cancel the parade. Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time. This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate it's birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet atonement. For we have sinned. We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that rave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago. The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner. The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing. The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them....

That's about 1/4 of it....

oh and for your rants at this guy, he put his e-mail on the paper.

The autor's email-> csatullo@phillynews.com

 

[Simaril]

I hear what you're saying, and it might be poor taste to bring it up on the Fourth.

But -- and I'm a midwestern conservative who pretty consistently votes republican -- I've been consistently troubled by the way the "War on Terror" has been invoked to allow stuff that's totally at odds with who we're supposed to be, what we're supposed to stand for. Wiretapping without a warrant? Putting people in prison without charging them, or having an independent review of the evidence against them? "Cruel and unusual" methods of interrogation?

Pretty much What the h$%^ are we doing? What are we becoming?

I'm a flag waving guy, and I'm glad to be an American. My dad was an Army Ranger, and my father in law drove a tank across Germany...for whatever that's worth. Through most of our history our country has prided itself on trying to stand for what is right even when the cost was high, but we don't seem to be walking that way now.

[angelsandair]

I hear what you're saying, and it might be poor taste to bring it up on the Fourth.

But -- and I'm a midwestern conservative who pretty consistently votes republican -- I've been consistently troubled by the way the "War on Terror" has been invoked to allow stuff that's totally at odds with who we're supposed to be, what we're supposed to stand for. Wiretapping without a warrant? Putting people in prison without charging them, or having an independent review of the evidence against them? "Cruel and unusual" methods of interrogation?

Pretty much What the h$%^ are we doing? What are we becoming?

I'm a flag waving guy, and I'm glad to be an American. My dad was an Army Ranger, and my father in law drove a tank across Germany...for whatever that's worth. Through most of our history our country has prided itself on trying to stand for what is right even when the cost was high, but we don't seem to be walking that way now.

Yes, but if you're caught by terrorists, they chop your head off on tape and send it to America for his family to see. Only 3 Prisoners of the War on Terror have been "tortured" which was just waterboarded. If you're caught in Iraq shooting an RPG at American soldiers, you probably dont need a trial. I'm sure that the excuse of "oh.. I was um... deer hunting" wouldn't get you past court. If I got the time, I'll put in the whole artical.

[uptown]

so which part of this is not true?

[angelsandair]

Alot of the article seems stupid. It seems to me that the author is just another one of todays regular youth. Ignorant. Shoot, just stupid.

[Simaril]

Yes, but if you're caught by terrorists, they chop your head off on tape and send it to America for his family to see. Only 3 Prisoners of the War on Terror have been "tortured" which was just waterboarded. If you're caught in Iraq shooting an RPG at American soldiers, you probably dont need a trial. I'm sure that the excuse of "oh.. I was um... deer hunting" wouldn't get you past court. If I got the time, I'll put in the whole artical.

I come from the school that says it doesn't matter what the other guy does, you're responsible for what YOU do.

The fact that terrorists are evil enough to decapitate shouldn't affect how we manage OUR prisoners. I'm not talking about waterboarding, by the way -- I'm talking about the memos that claimed legal justification for extraordinary questioning methods "short of death and organ failure" (or something like that, as I recall.)

You're also completely bypassing what I think is the KEY question at Gitmo - are the people held there really fighters? Are they POWs, or were they caught up in a net unjustly? The recent court case about the Chinese resistance fighters seems to imply that some people have been imprisoned for YEARS without ANY evidence that they were guilty of anything beyond being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now, this newspaper guy is clearly being inflammatory to make his point (or he's a weak kneed hand wringer), but honestly I have trouble defending the morality of some of what we're finding out.

[lasersailor184]

Usually I dont read the paper, but I opened it up to find this off the Austin "Un"American Statesman.....

That's about 1/4 of it....

oh and for your rants at this guy, he put his e-mail on the paper.

The autor's email-> csatullo@phillynews.com

 

The real irony is...  We did found the country to do those things.  We've done them so many times throughout history.  The current round of it wasn't the first, it definitely won't be the last.


I love the ignorant of history.  They make my life fun.

[john9001]

You're also completely bypassing what I think is the KEY question at Gitmo - are the people held there really fighters?

some that were released, have gone back to fighting and been killed or recaptured.

i prefer the Genghis Khan type of warfare, take no prisoners. But back to gitmo, they should have been held as POW's , that way they could be held until the war is over.

[angelsandair]

Put the fireworks in storage. Cancel the parade. Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time. This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate it's birthday. This Fourth of July should be a day of quiet atonement. For we have sinned. We have failed to pay attention. We've settled for lame excuses. We've spit on the memory of those who did that rave, brave thing in Philadelphia 232 years ago. The America those men founded should never torture a prisoner. The America they founded should never imprison people for years without charge or hearing. The America they founded should never ship prisoners to foreign lands, knowing their new jailers might torture them. Such abuses once were committed by the arrogant crowns of Europe, spawning rebellion. Today, our nation does such things in the name of our safety. Petrified, unwilling to take the risks that love of liberty demands, we close our eyes. We have done such things, on orders from the oval office. We have done them, without general outrage or shame. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo. CIA secret prisons. "Rendition" of prisoners to foreign torture chambers. It's not enough that we had good reason to be scared. The men huddled long ago in Philadelphia had better reason. A British fleet floated off the Jersey coast, full of hands eager to hang them from the nearest lampposts. Yet they pledged their lives and sacred honor - no idle vow - to defend the "inalienable rights" of men. Inalienable - what does that signify? It means rights that belong to each person, simply by virtue of being human. Rights that can never be taken away, no matter what evil a person might do or might intend. Surely one of those is the right not to be tortured. Surely that is a piece of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." This is the creed of July Fourth:No matter what it costs us, no matter how it scares us, no matter how foolish it seems to a cynical world, America should stand up for human rights. No, not even the brave men who picked up a quill, dipped it in ink, and sighned the parchment that summer day in Philadelphia lived up perfectly to the creed. But they did something extraordinary, founding a new nation upon a vow to oppose all the evil habits of tyranny. That is why history still honors them. But what will history think of us, of how we responded to our great challenge? Sept. 11 was a hideous evil, a grevous wound. Yet, truth told, it has not summoned our better angels as often as our worst. We have betrayed the July Fourth creed. We trample the vows we make, hand to heart. Don't imagine that only the torturer's hand bears the guilt. The guilt reaches deep inside our Capitol, and beyond that - to us. Our silence is complicit. In our name, innocents were jailed, humans tortured, our Constitution mangled. And we said so little. We cant claim not to have known. The best among us raised the alarm. Heroes in uniform, judges in robes, they opposed the perverse logic of an administration drehcned in fear, drunk on power. But did we heed them? Hardly. Barely... We were so busy. Soccor practice at 6. A credit card balance to fret. The final vote on "idol." We left it to those inpoer to keep our precious selves from harm. What ever it took. We took the cowards way. The world sees this, even if we are too dim to grasp it. We've lost respect. We've shamed the memory of Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin. And all for a scam. The waterboarding, the snarling dogs, the theft of sleep - all the diabolical tricks havent made us safer. They may have averted this plot or that. BUt they've spawned new enemies by the thousands, made the jihadist rans right true to so many ears. So put out no flags. Sing no patriotic hymns. We deserve no Fourth this year. Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our founders. May we earn a new bith of courage before our nation's next birthday rolls around

Whole thing. There's so much of it that isn't true.

[Speed55]

"Put the fireworks in storage. Cancel the parade. Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time. This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate it's birthday. So put out no flags. Sing no patriotic hymns.
Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our founders."

Let us, we should, we have, how will.... bleh bogus garbage.
If he wants to sit in a basement with the lights off and cry that's fine with me.

I'm going to celebrate the 4th of July Today!!
Happy 4th Everyone!! 

[angelsandair]

"Put the fireworks in storage. Cancel the parade. Tuck the soaring speeches in a drawer for another time. This year, America doesn't deserve to celebrate it's birthday. So put out no flags. Sing no patriotic hymns.
Let us atone, in quiet and humility. Let us spend the day truly studying the example of our founders."

Let us, we should, we have, how will.... bleh bogus garbage.
If he wants to sit in a basement with the lights off and cry that's fine with me.

I'm going to celebrate the 4th of July Today!!
Happy 4th Everyone!! 

Worst part is, a whole bunch of it is bogus crud. There's more poo in this article than in a truckstop bathroom.

I got 85$$ worth of fireworks and I intend to have FUN.

[DYNAMITE]

Worst part is, a whole bunch of it is bogus crud. There's more poo in this article than in a truckstop bathroom.

I got 85$$ worth of fireworks and I intend to have FUN.

Angelsandair...  first, that's not an article - it's and editorial.  Second, when you say we "only 'tortured' 3 and it was only waterboarding"  that is 3 too many.  Did you know that the United States tried, convicted, and executed 8 Japanese officers for the war crime of "just waterboarding" ? 

The author has reason to lament.  Is he a bit whiny about it?  Sure.  But we as a nation have lost much (not all) of our moral authority over the past few years.  And that, young man, is a tragedy.

[Motherland]

you probably dont need a trial.

That, right there, is probably one of the most un-American ways of thinking possible.

Then again, I'm one of those stupid people who think that the trial and execution of Saddam Hussein by his countrymen was a real sign of progress in Iraq.

[nirvana]

And that's why we fight, so people may speak their minds freely and you can do the same.  God bless America, have a safe 4th.

[angelsandair]

That, right there, is probably one of the most un-American ways of thinking possible.

You're right. Just kinda angry about what I saw. Another thing about them not getting a trial is the fact that they arent even American Citizens for the most part. So wouldn't it make it to where they could or could not have a trial?

Still, they've been letting people go, most go home to their families. IIRC, there's only been about 3 or 4 incidences with the people being released to be violent again.