Great FSO

[DH367th]

Captfish rest that got engaged with 367th and 68's great fights you chaps gave us a real fight head ons were
not the first tactic used lotta manuver fighting.we may have got the best this round but knowing you guys im sure you will be back with a vengance
DH367

[DaveJ]

Some serious rethinking needs to be done for the next 2 frames, or I can GUARANTEE you all (CiCs and everyone else in charge) that there will be little interest for this FSO and the number of pilots will be greatly reduced.

I myself probably will not come if all Jokers get assigned to do is patrol a remote sector with zero chance of fighter vs fighter action and instead chase jets all day. No thank you.

[toadkill]

Like i suggested, ditch the 234s and allow those pilots to be moved to fighters so that we can allow the 262s to be used correctly, they were never meant to be 1v1 fighters. They were there to distract or pick someone in a dogfight get them killed by allowing an allied fighter to get a shot on them, or hit them when they aren't expecting it. After all objectives that are correctly defended by the allied planes is at most a mutual defeat. All allies have to do is hover at 30k above the target, and then wait for the 234s to attack and when they pass over the objective, pounce them with a 10k dive and you've successfully negated their most major defensive feature, speed.

[Motherland]

Like i suggested, ditch the 234s and allow those pilots to be moved to fighters so that we can allow the 262s to be used correctly, they were never meant to be 1v1 fighters. They were there to distract or pick someone in a dogfight get them killed by allowing an allied fighter to get a shot on them, or hit them when they aren't expecting it. After all objectives that are correctly defended by the allied planes is at most a mutual defeat. All allies have to do is hover at 30k above the target, and then wait for the 234s to attack and when they pass over the objective, pounce them with a 10k dive and you've successfully negated their most major defensive feature, speed.

Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.

The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.

I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.

[Valkyrie]

5th Air Force had a great night. I would suggest for the LW whiners that they contact their CIC and do a better job of coordination over the target. Because what I saw of the 234 runs on the troop factory the timing was none existent to abysmal.


Vlkyrie1

[trax1]

I would suggest for the LW whiners that they contact their CIC and do a better job of coordination over the target.

Exactly, don't blame the plane set, or the set up, with the right set of orders I'm sure you would have had a better FSO.

[Krusty]

(*Krusty walks up to the podium, clears his throat, shuffles his papers, taps the mic gently*)

"I told you so."






P.S. USMC/71Sqn were bored as hell looking all over London area for anything to fight and then FINALLY after were were about to say "screw the orders, let's find a fight" as we strayed to find a fight we got bounced by 2 or 3 separate squadrons in re-entry from a sub-orbital trajectory, and not one of us survived. Okay, one (me), but I was put out of the fight instantly and ran RTB with no radiator, never fired a damned shot.

I agree with the "most boring FSO EVER" comment.

Bad design, bad setup. Allied planes will ALWAYS have the advantage in this setup. The 109K can barely fly level at 32k. It can't make a gentle turn without losing a few K alt. 190D can't even GET to 30k. If it zooms that high and levels out, it has to drop 4k as it makes a gentle sector-wide 90-degree turn.

P.P.S. For the folks griping about the 152: It'd have been 12x worse in a 190d. Keep that in mind.190D in past FSOs can only hold its own against p-47s that were otherwise occupied, and is dog meat for p51s in squad-v-squad engagements. Can't disengage, can't outmanuver, can't run, can't get over the target to bounce it, can't break from a bounce before being shot.

[Saxman]

Only real problems I had with the Dora in Frame 1 was the guns and the view forward (granted, the fight basically boiled down to anywhere from 8-12 of my squad jumping on at most about 4-5 P-47s and/or P-51s that stumbled across us in sporadic groups). Had shots a couple times I could have nailed with one eye closed in my Hog, but German Iron has almost no visibility over the nose except up, so deflection-shooting was totally blind, and the rotten guns led to a few scattered hits from the cowl guns and I don't think I landed anything with the cannon. I'd have gladly traded the two 20mm for an extra pair of 13mm machine guns, which even then IMO suffer significantly in comparison to the point-and-click Ma Deuce, but at least I'd have more consistent ballistics and could maybe have turned one of my three assists into a kill with the extra weight of fire.

(This is after practicing gunnery in the Dora in the DA, too)

Regarding altitude, the fighting in our sector very quickly descended to about 10,000ft or lower, including a couple short brawls on the deck (see Nefarious' pics ).

[toadkill]

Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.

The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.

I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.

And why is it being a big furball a bad thing? It beats flying for 52 minutes just to get both drones and 1 engine shot out by 20 space shuttles on re-entry, and then flying another 55 minutes rtb with one engine, constantly having to hold rudder so you don't do circles. Not to mention missing the bomb drops because the wind is in a different direction than specified in the objectives/orders.

Sax: Yeah the Dora takes a special kinda person to get really good at gunnery with. Sorta like shooting at stuff in a hurry at 600 out in a hard turn. See it before hand pull a lot more lead on it, pull trigger, let yourself lag outside their turn to see if the plane is still there.

[Odee]

If you like the 38, consider coming to the 49th FG.  Pretty much all we fly in AvA

Some serious rethinking needs to be done for the next 2 frames, or I can GUARANTEE you all (CiCs and everyone else in charge) that there will be little interest for this FSO and the number of pilots will be greatly reduced.

I myself probably will not come if all Jokers get assigned to do is patrol a remote sector with zero chance of fighter vs fighter action and instead chase jets all day. No thank you.

Well Davey, the 49th found plenty of fighters Friday night...  Only problem was, they were higher than our 109K's 

  353rd for a great swirling dogfight! 

PS You're in VA?  I'm up next to the Rappahanock river

[Frodo]

I had a very intense fun FSO. No shortage of spit14's and jugs in the air it seemed. 


Agree with Bubi the TA-152 is the best air to air FW. Takes some time to get used to though. Watch moot fly it to see how good it can be.


Frodo

[DaveJ]

  I'm up next to the Rappahanock river

Pretty much same here. I live in Fredericksburg. 

[Odee]

Pretty much same here. I live in Fredericksburg. 

  Git out!  Me too   

 

[DaveJ]

  Git out!  Me too   

 

 

 

[crockett]

Not really a scenario then, just one big furball.

The 262's should be used as escort fighters, apparently they were not...? They're useless otherwise. 262 are the only a/c that can keep up with 234s while avoiding allied fighters, and they have a distraction (the bombers) to capitalize on.

I didn't get to look at the orders though, as my email is down.

Our group was sent in ahead of the bombers to do a fighter sweep before the bombers got there. I have no clue where the other 262's were supposed to go but only 9 of us were sent as a fighter sweep against two squads and 20+ Temps and P51D's.

(rest of this post is stats info in hopes of making the next two frames better)

From the looks of the scores the other 262's were also used in pretty much the same roll as we were, most likely fighter sweeps.

A total of 46 262's accounted for only 18 kills. ( in which Kappa killed 5 on his own.. wtg kappa <!S>)

Lynchmod had 17 pilots in 262's 7 kills 5 landed
31st Fighter Group had 8 262's  1 kill 3 landed
325th Checkertails VFG 12 pilots 0 kills and 17 landed (dunno whats up with that looks like some of them reupped)
Army of Muppets 9 pilots 10 kills 3 landed (my squad)

If you exclude the 325th because they reupped it appears and didn't kill anything, that's 34 aircraft which still isn't even a 1 to 1 kill ratio with only 11 landing. That's less than 1 third of the aircraft that saw action that actually survived.

I'm not sure how it can be concluded as anything other than the aircraft were used in a pretty much a useless manor. Now I'm not trying to rag on the event staff I'm thankful they put these events on. My hats off to them, I'm just trying to make sure the most valuable aircraft on the Axis side are used in a useful manor the next two frames.

Granted this is a "what if" set up so we don't have any real tactics to go by, but in a sense we do. Look at the Russian Front and the Tiger tanks. The Tigers were sent into the battle and got their butts handed to them at first. The Axis realized the Tanks were likely the best tanks on the battlefield but they just couldn't send them head first into a battle with out any support. 

The Axis adjusted their tactics and were later much more careful how the Tigers were used in battle, allowing the more expendable Armor to engage first. One would have to assume the Axis after suffering losses such as this, would then rethink their tactics to use their most valuable aircraft in a diffrent mannor that is more suited to their ability. That or we just need to clone Kappa 46 times.