Great FSO

[Ponyace]

Alright, alright, you win Saxman. Besides, we're getting a little off topic. This thread is about how the FSO was, not how it will be. Either way, the second frame should be better than the first for both sides as the Cics will have feedback that they didnt have for the first one and (hopefully) will learn from it.

[Stoney]

Numbers:

Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.

Given the breakdown of squads, and their historical numbers each frame, the Axis should be able to field in excess of 350 aircraft per frame, versus 275 for the Allies.  That's predicated on 275 Allied pilots and 225 Axis pilots.  For frame 1, there were 247 Axis pilots and 263 Allied pilots, with a total of 375 Axis aircraft being used and 290 Allied aircraft being used.  These numbers aren't vetted for all the takeoff re-ups, discos, and crashes--I'll have that data after I finish the scoring.  But, clearly the Axis had an advantage in numbers of aircraft.

[Stoney]

This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk.

Given that the score hasn't even been posted yet, I'd say this statement is premature...

[humble]

Given that the score hasn't even been posted yet, I'd say this statement is premature...

No question that the arados got thru and some did very well. My comments were directed at the functional result, not the score per se. The 262 units were relatively inneffective and suffered high losses. A number of the other german units literally ceased to exist. So from my perspective the thought that the 262's would be effective and/or tip the overall balance toward the axis to create a turkey shoot was wrong.

From some of the allied pilots comments it sounds like the allied command and control didnt do a good job of getting units into play (then again to use football terminology you need to stay in your lane vs the arado's) otherwise german losses would be even higher. In a real war scenario the germans would have suffered unsustainable losses with entire fighter groups wiped out and 262 losses beyond sustainable operations tempo...at least thats my conclusion from looking at the logs.

[crockett]

Given the breakdown of squads, and their historical numbers each frame, the Axis should be able to field in excess of 350 aircraft per frame, versus 275 for the Allies.  That's predicated on 275 Allied pilots and 225 Axis pilots.  For frame 1, there were 247 Axis pilots and 263 Allied pilots, with a total of 375 Axis aircraft being used and 290 Allied aircraft being used.  These numbers aren't vetted for all the takeoff re-ups, discos, and crashes--I'll have that data after I finish the scoring.  But, clearly the Axis had an advantage in numbers of aircraft.

You sure the diffrence in aircraft numbers wasn't from the bomber formations? Don't forget those add up to three planes per pilot so that's not really the same. I know any of the scenerios I've flown in where Allies had buff formations, they greatly outnumbered the Axis in plane numbers. In this FSO Allies still had more pilots than Axis by about 20.

[Saxman]

That was my point about Kanalkampf. The Allies not only had the advantage in overall numbers of aircraft, but also in total number of PILOTS.

Kanalkampf numbers, Allies vs Axis:

Frame 1: 292 vs 237
Frame 2: 292 vs 216
Frame 3: 256 vs 207

Personally, I DO think that attackers that are rolling buff formations SHOULD have fewer pilots since a big chunk of theirs have multiple aircraft to keep things even, but if the scenario of Kanalkampf called for Allies to have more pilots, this campaign is a reversal of the situation so why not give the Axis more pilots?

[Stoney]

this campaign is a reversal of the situation so why not give the Axis more pilots?

This campaign is not a reversal of Kanalkampf.  It is set up using a fictional, but plausible, background story.  The numbers exist for balance purposes, and nothing more.

[ImADot]

The 262 units were relatively inneffective and suffered high losses.

Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night?  I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission).  How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down?  I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious. 

[humble]

Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night?  I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission).  How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down?  I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious. 

AoM (Army of Muppets) is a very seasoned bunch top to bottom, also a very aggresive bunch of guys. They'll certainly take advantage of any break they get, but if it works out against them they'll follow Pickett up Cemetary Ridge also. So while some may be due to inexperience etc, AoM is as close to a squad of "expertain" as you'll find. They suffered 88% attrition (8 out of 9). We (USMC/71SQ) lost all but 1 of our 109K's. Historically we often rank near the top performance wise in FSO as well. For both of those seasoned squads to suffer such catostophic losses is very rare. If this was a scenario where you carried your losses over 2 very seasoned squads would be non exisistant for the balance.

[Delirium]

It makes absolutely no sense... with reduced icon range, the 262s should be cleaning house.

The Axis best bet is to leave them in groups of 3s and attach them to regular prop a/c squadrons, a pack of 262s is nice but not terribly effective.

[REP0MAN]

As a player in a seasoned FSO squad, yeah, we've had our butts handed to us many times. We shrug it off and train to avoid further repeats of that performance. Sometimes you're windshield, sometimes you're the bug. For the vets of this event, it's what causes our love/hate relationship with our beloved FSO.

As an FSO CM, I am thrilled to see this debate and discussion. With our event growing to the point it has, there are many new players and squads. They are getting to experience how crucial the CiC role is and how much dependence is on a strong commander. Remember, the team is only as strong as it's leader and his/her plan. I am not degrading this specific event's CiC's. Just using them as an example.

Planning is crucial. I think the Admin's do a great job in designing these events to ensure that the maximum number of players have fun but part of the overall scope of the event is the player interaction and command. Like I said, sometimes you're the wind......

Looking forward to frame two!

[crockett]

Could that be attributed to the fact that perhaps many of the pilots never fly a 262 before this night?  I know I never did (although I landed successfully at the end of the mission).  How many crashed on their own and how many actually got shot down?  I haven't scanned the logs to find out, but would be curious. 

I don't think that was much of a factor IMHO. I fly 262's quite often and I never had a chance in the FSO to even fire my guns because of the sheer amount of cons and their altitude. I'm also quit certain many of the guys in 262 had plenty of experience in them. The problem is they were just not suited to that fight and being way out numbered just made it nothing but dodging HO's and running like a girl.

You couldn't dare slow down to try to get a shot of a turning con because 10 others would jump you. The 262's aren't much good over 15k, so their prime fighting alts are around 15k to 8k meanwhile all the Typhs and Pony's were 20k+. So in short it was just a fight the 262's couldn't do anything with and was very under matched on top of being outnumbered over 2 to 1.

I think adding a alt cap of 15k before contact would go a long way toward helping even out the plane sets.

[crockett]

As a player in a seasoned FSO squad, yeah, we've had our butts handed to us many times. We shrug it off and train to avoid further repeats of that performance. Sometimes you're windshield, sometimes you're the bug. For the vets of this event, it's what causes our love/hate relationship with our beloved FSO.

As an FSO CM, I am thrilled to see this debate and discussion. With our event growing to the point it has, there are many new players and squads. They are getting to experience how crucial the CiC role is and how much dependence is on a strong commander. Remember, the team is only as strong as it's leader and his/her plan. I am not degrading this specific event's CiC's. Just using them as an example.

Planning is crucial. I think the Admin's do a great job in designing these events to ensure that the maximum number of players have fun but part of the overall scope of the event is the player interaction and command. Like I said, sometimes you're the wind......

Looking forward to frame two!

I pretty much agree with you. You can't expect to win them all and not every FSO is going to be a blast but it sure sucks when they arent..     My only hope is we can take what was learned from this frame and use it to make the next two frames a bit more fun for all.

[humble]

It makes absolutely no sense... with reduced icon range, the 262s should be cleaning house.

The Axis best bet is to leave them in groups of 3s and attach them to regular prop a/c squadrons, a pack of 262s is nice but not terribly effective.

If the fight was at lower alts and/or the allied planes were otherwise engaged yes. But a 262 vs higher (and probably more numerous) cons at alts above 25K is totally defensive.

[VonMessa]

  Git out!  Me too   

 

My deepest condolences.