pony vs 190

[Steve]

Correct, at high speed them pony flaps will tears a D9 up in a heart beat if the pony pilot knows how to use it. Even if the D9 started out on the pony's six. Once we get down low and slow, about 150-200 knts it's pretty even. If both started at that E state. The hard part is getting D9 and 51 down to that slow speed though. The fight usually end where the 51 keep its E up. Them high speed flaps make reversal so much easier =/.

At high speed the d9 roll rate trumps flaps.  There are a lot of misinformed people in the MA. In a Co-E dogfight, the D9 holds more cards. In a 1v1 Co-E fight, the 51's best option is to get it as slow as possible where the advantage of the flaps will become more pronounced. In a high speed fight, with pilots being equal, the d9 has the advantage.

[Steve]

No offence but you are incorrect, the pony has every advantage but acceleration and roll rate at slow speed v a dora, any horizontal fight should end in the ponys lap, especially with flaps out.

This is wrong as well. The dora dives just as well, climbs better, is more lethal, is tougher.

[Steve]

you'll have to show me this some time Yenny,  every 190D i've ever encounted fast or slow has been taken apart by my Pony.

Bruv, I suspect this is more about the pilot than the planes, no offense. A fast D9 has some significant advantages of the pony at speed.

[Steve]

51 have the advantage if they both are at 300 knts +, but as you slow the 51 down. The d9 will be able to dance all over the 51,

This is completely backwards.  Just plain wrong.

[Sweet2th]

51 have the advantage if they both are at 300 knts +, but as you slow the 51 down. The d9 will be able to dance all over the 51, but again it's depend on the pilots. 51 vs d9 is a pretty even fight.

you gotta not run away first of all. It has nothing to do with the plane, it is the person in control of the plane.

[evenhaim]

This is wrong as well. The dora dives just as well, climbs better, is more lethal, is tougher.

sorry i guess i wasnt clear i met on the deck where the dora cant dive out, the lethality canbe argued both ways because its easier to hit with 6 50s than a 20mm in some casses and as for the climbing that is true

[Steve]

sorry i guess i wasnt clear i met on the deck where the dora cant dive out, the lethality canbe argued both ways because its easier to hit with 6 50s than a 20mm in some casses and as for the climbing that is true

You are right that the 50's clearly have better ballistics.   

I was referring to a close in knife fight and snap shots.  There, it is my opinion that the D9 cannon give it the edge in lethality.

[evenhaim]

You are right that the 50's clearly have better ballistics.   

I was referring to a close in knife fight and snap shots.  There, it is my opinion that the D9 cannon give it the edge in lethality.

definatly

[BnZ]

You are right that the 50's clearly have better ballistics.   

I was referring to a close in knife fight and snap shots.  There, it is my opinion that the D9 cannon give it the edge in lethality.

It is not so much the Pony's guns that give it an edge in shooting IMO, it is the view out the front.

The Dora has alot of nose blocking view during a tracking shot and alot of frames blocking views for any kind of out-of-plane snapshot. A plane where you absolutely NEED to be able to make out-of-plane snapshots alot, and they are made a magnitude of difficulty tougher by the views. 

Oh...and the P-51 will always catch a diving Dora. Picks up speed quicker in dives, retains E like nobodies business. By diving even slightly, a P-51 with a little alt can run away from a Dora for a loooooooooooooooooooong time too.

If you have a P-51 diving on our six in a Dora, hopefully you are fast and have the alt to get faster. Your game is using the D-9's roll rate and the fact that it bleeds E faster in a downward spiral to force him to overshoot, or do something that makes him loose enough closure that your engine power will allow you accelerate and extend away. The Pony's game will be to manage his E state just right, so he doesn't overshoot OR let you off the hook.

[Steve]

Oh...and the P-51 will always catch a diving Dora.

This is simply incorrect, assuming the E states are nearly the same.

[evenhaim]

This is simply incorrect, assuming the E states are nearly the same.

agreed dora def has this one in the bag.

[BnZ]

This is simply incorrect, assuming the E states are nearly the same.

*shrug* In my experience with Ponys and Doras, I disagree. Easy enough to test I suppose. But the question of whether these were really Co-E experiences is open I suppose.


From a max velocity dive, I think once both planes are on the deck and level out, the P-51D will retain the extra speed long enough to begin pinging the dora.

[BnZ]

Just did a test that explains it gentlemen.

With no drop tank rack, the Dora does run 375 on the deck on WEP.

However, with the rack in tow, the top deck speed is reduced to 369. And owing to the shorter legs on the D-9 on internal with MA fuel burns, I and I imagine most others usually carry the drop.

The P-51 is modeled with the drop tank pylons whether you carry them or not, and always runs 368 on the deck on WEP.

Therefore, a diving pony can should be able to make up quite abit of distance on a diving Dora with its greater E retention, under these conditions, once both level out, and this is why it seems like forever chasing a Pony sometimes in a Dora. You have to run them out of WEP before you have a speed advantage.

I have also noticed that a P-51 seems to pick up speed quicker with the nose down. I never run into compressibility problems even in exended dives with a closed throttle in the D9. I have in the P-51, (and the P-47, for that matter) and developed the habit of dropping a notch of flaps as speed-brakes when nessecary.

<S>

[Steve]

Just did a test that explains it gentlemen.

With no drop tank rack, the Dora does run 375 on the deck on WEP.

However, with the rack in tow, the top deck speed is reduced to 369. And owing to the shorter legs on the D-9 on internal with MA fuel burns, I and I imagine most others usually carry the drop.

The P-51 is modeled with the drop tank pylons whether you carry them or not, and always runs 368 on the deck on WEP.

Therefore, a diving pony can should be able to make up quite abit of distance on a diving Dora with its greater E retention, under these conditions, once both level out, and this is why it seems like forever chasing a Pony sometimes in a Dora. You have to run them out of WEP before you have a speed advantage.

I have also noticed that a P-51 seems to pick up speed quicker with the nose down. I never run into compressibility problems even in exended dives with a closed throttle in the D9. I have in the P-51, (and the P-47, for that matter) and developed the habit of dropping a notch of flaps as speed-brakes when nessecary.

<S>

So you've based your premise on the D9 carrying a drop tank.. is that correct? 

[BnZ]

No Steve, on a D9 that still has the drop-tank rack.

I'd jettison it too, if Icould. 

I think even with the center-line rack, a P-51 stands a good chance of catching a Fw-190 who tries to dive away, if the initial seperation is not too great. Better zoom climb=will retain excess speed longer. The 190 must set up a situation where it can make use of its better thrust/weight ratio in level acceleration or a climb.