Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)

[2bighorn]

In my view it does not.

Because your view is that law shouldn't tell us what is right or wrong because we as humans commit crimes no matter the law?
We shouldn't be against smaller evil as long as big evil remains?

Not quite so.

We humans lived millions of years by certain rules. Rules ensured that groups could function which in turn increased chances of survival. Inside the group, some limits were imposed, hierarchy, dos and don'ts, etc . No different than wolf pack. That's how nature made us (or God, if you're religious)
The more successful the bigger that group, tribe, clan, nation became and with that more complex. So did the rules of behavior, you can call them code of conduct, morals, ethics, pick your term. Even with increased complexity, there was always very clear what's right and what's wrong.
The bible, the laws, modern ethics, all are pretty much based on it. Sometimes, code of conduct took wrong turn so far and so badly, that even some big and powerful civilizations fell as a result of moral decay, at other times, deviation was corrected by wars and revolutions, education, religion.
With ever increasing world population, industrialization, technological advances, societies evolved and moral rules became increasingly complex and codified into the laws just about everywhere on this planet, yet the basic rules are still the same.

Today, philosophers discuss the ethics, change the rules, drop some and create new ones, so do politicians and people, some ignore them like tyrants and criminals, and some do not understand them for various reasons, some wish them simplified, some even more complex.

And even though we live in the same society, by the same laws, we also create our own which are part of individual moral fortitude. The one we live by.

Luckily, enough people set pretty high personal standards, draw the lines which they don't cross, no matter the hardship, which ensures  survival of us as a civilized society during dark times, like war, natural disasters, terrorist attacks and so on.

On the end, it really is simple, there is the difference between right and wrong, even if some can't see the line which separates them, and the torture is definitely on the wrong side.

Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?

[Rich46yo]

Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?

Because nobody would be tortured here. And certainly not citizens. The only ones dunked would be very high value terrorist leaders and only then to prevent great American and Allied loss of life.

Your talking like were going to open up a torture chamber on every street corner.

As for the rest of your post Bighorn? Thank you. I dont believe Ive ever read anything quite like it.

You guys think an American running for President would come out in favor of waterboarding Terrorist leaders? Dont be so gullible.

ause your view is that law shouldn't tell us what is right or wrong because we as humans commit crimes no matter the law?
We shouldn't be against smaller evil as long as big evil remains?

Not quite so.

We humans lived millions of years by certain rules. Rules ensured that groups could function which in turn increased chances of survival. Inside the group, some limits were imposed, hierarchy, dos and don'ts, etc . No different than wolf pack. That's how nature made us (or God, if you're religious)
The more successful the bigger that group, tribe, clan, nation became and with that more complex. So did the rules of behavior, you can call them code of conduct, morals, ethics, pick your term. Even with increased complexity, there was always very clear what's right and what's wrong.
The bible, the laws, modern ethics, all are pretty much based on it. Sometimes, code of conduct took wrong turn so far and so badly, that even some big and powerful civilizations fell as a result of moral decay, at other times, deviation was corrected by wars and revolutions, education, religion.
With ever increasing world population, industrialization, technological advances, societies evolved and moral rules became increasingly complex and codified into the laws just about everywhere on this planet, yet the basic rules are still the same.

Today, philosophers discuss the ethics, change the rules, drop some and create new ones, so do politicians and people, some ignore them like tyrants and criminals, and some do not understand them for various reasons, some wish them simplified, some even more complex.

And even though we live in the same society, by the same laws, we also create our own which are part of individual moral fortitude. The one we live by.

Luckily, enough people set pretty high personal standards, draw the lines which they don't cross, no matter the hardship, which ensures  survival of us as a civilized society during dark times, like war, natural disasters, terrorist attacks and so on.

On the end, it really is simple, there is the difference between right and wrong, even if some can't see the line which separates them, and the torture is definitely on the wrong side.

Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?

Bec

[bj229r]

The Brits used really neat Marquis of Queensbury rules some time back....they marched in nice, straight lines, wore bright red uniforms...and we wore uniforms which blended into the rocks and trees from which we shot behind....the Brits lost, and they stopped wearing the pretty red uniforms

[2bighorn]

Because nobody would be tortured here. And certainly not citizens. The only ones dunked would be very high value terrorist leaders and only then to prevent great American and Allied loss of life.

Lets say we allow torture as you stated above.
I'd still have problems with it because:

a) If not here, where and by whom? How can we trust those who are such scumbags that would torture for somebody else?

b) What if US citizen is a high ranking terrorist and/or we suspect knowledge of future attack?

c) If you have so little info that you have to resort to torture, how can you be sure that info extracted will actually prevent loss of life? If we'd know, we probably wouldn't have to torture?

d) Current administration redefined the torture in order to circumvent the law. How can we be sure future administrations won't try the same and redefine what the terrorism is in order to apply torture on larger scale, worse yet, here at home?

You guys think an American running for President would come out in favor of waterboarding Terrorist leaders? Dont be so gullible.

Too many times presidential candidate made 180 degree turn after being elected.

[Rich46yo]

Lets say we allow torture as you stated above.
I'd still have problems with it because:

a) If not here, where and by whom? How can we trust those who are such scumbags that would torture for somebody else?

Compared to whom? The scumbags we trust with weapons of mass death that have the power to end all life on the planet? Those scumbags? And they must be scumbags right? If they are ruthless enough to unleash nuclear weapons. A 450 KT nuke falling on you must make waterboarding feel like a day at the beach.

b) What if US citizen is a high ranking terrorist and/or we suspect knowledge of future attack?

Different rules. But even there would you want to remain moral or have 30,000 people choking to death on sarin in the NYNY subway. Just an example.

c) If you have so little info that you have to resort to torture, how can you be sure that info extracted will actually prevent loss of life? If we'd know, we probably wouldn't have to torture?

If your looking for absolute truths then find another species to belong to. Your never sure till you find it. Even still terms like "high probability" have value.

d) Current administration redefined the torture in order to circumvent the law. How can we be sure future administrations won't try the same and redefine what the terrorism is in order to apply torture on larger scale, worse yet, here at home?

All the misdirection and hysteria might turn you into a liberal. Even in WW-ll, the closest weve ever come to martial Law, this didnt happen If I have to choose between trusting or Govt. or the terrorists my choice is easy.

Too many times presidential candidate made 180 degree turn after being elected.

Ya think? Can you imagine anyone running for President saying, "Im for torture"? The way it usually works, if you havnt noticed, is they say what they need to say to get elected and then afterwards do what they have to do.

[mechanic]

Bighorn i think you're reading too much into my replies. Purely talking about the act of torture on prisoners, there is no point banning waterboarding specifically and thinking that makes us more humane than anyone else. And there is no point thinking we are more humane if we set certain standards within the act of torture for many reasons, one being that people will always enjoy torturing others, another that the guidlines will always be broken if needed. Nothing would change except that more people would be forced to break the law in order to ensure your country survives todays world.

[lazs2]

I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.

lazs

[Baitman]

I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.

lazs

Exactly, there you go 

[Gunthr]

I heard that the Obama campaign is doing a soft probe behind the scenes in Congress to see if there is any sentiment for granting the IRS the right to torture.  There are many, many new social engineering programs as well as nationial health care to fund, so it makes sense...   you know - more money to be used for "good"


has anybody been able to confirm this?

[2bighorn]

Bighorn i think you're reading too much into my replies. Purely talking about the act of torture on prisoners, there is no point banning waterboarding specifically and thinking that makes us more humane than anyone else. And there is no point thinking we are more humane if we set certain standards within the act of torture for many reasons, one being that people will always enjoy torturing others, another that the guidlines will always be broken if needed. Nothing would change except that more people would be forced to break the law in order to ensure your country survives todays world.

No I don't. You're the one who's painting the picture like we are on the brink of extinction because of few scumbags.
You're from UK so I do understand your point of view, because your government has created the state of perpetual paranoia and you guys let your government grab the powers not imaginable in any other democracy.

Among all the western democracies, only in UK police can stop, search and arrest anyone anywhere without probable cause.
If you get arrested, police can search your home without warrant.
Not to mention your CCTV covers more of your life than EDTV would.
And OMG, those posters in London plastered everywhere you go, saying something like "Secure beneath the watchful eye" or something like that.

You can't defend yourself either, no guns, smack a burglar and you get arrested, while criminal gets free psychological treatment for suffering you caused it to him.

Torture is probably the last piece of puzzle your government needs to convert UK into complete police state.

So, yeah, go for it.

[Yeager]

I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.

lazs

The mechanics of elected government being what they are, I cant think of a better civilian institution to do the job.  You got any ideas?

[mechanic]

oh i see how it is, its just another 'America is free, England is a prison' point of view. I'm not going to stand here and argue a point about torture with someone who is only interested in lifting their own country above the heads of the rest of the world. That is the overall problem here, Bighorn, that you seem to think banning torture will make America the world's moral guardians..... you nuked two cities less than 100 years ago, you are not fooling anyone but yourself.

[Yeager]

you nuked two cities less than 100 years ago.

Yes, we won your war for you and now you would hold it against us? 

[mechanic]

won our war?  I suppose pearl harbour was our loss too.

You pumped up, over zealous Euro-haters just have to have a pop whenever you get a chance dont you.



oh nice edit yeager.... I'm not holding it agaisnt you, I'm telling you your quest to be the moral leaders of the world is a joke.

[RATTFINK]

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