Author Topic: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.  (Read 10035 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #180 on: July 20, 2008, 03:38:50 PM »
That is true. But get this.....when I used to play two different characters in EverQuest at the same time, each character on a separate computer, but both computers on the same connection and sitting right next to each other....there was a visible difference in the time each computer saw and displayed the same events.

ooo jeeze..now you're confusing me more......
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #181 on: July 20, 2008, 05:40:21 PM »
Watch Lusche's film.  It shows how the two realities viewed the situation.  One of the trailing planes collided (happened to be in Lusche's reality).  The other trailing plane did not intersect the leading plane (the leading plane's reality), and therefore the leading plane did not suffer a collision.

Ah OK, so how do they shoot each other if they play in different realities?

Oh yeah, how do we communicate now with extra realities? Is it possible to receive the answer even before you asked the question?

Fascinating...  :confused:

Offline 2bighorn

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #182 on: July 20, 2008, 05:43:26 PM »
say for instance you're in the UK. you're fighting soneone that lives in texas.........your information will take longer to get to and from the host computers than mine will. because of this, we'll never ever see the exact same thing.

Yeah, Brits were always on the slow side. If we ban the Brits, do we get to see the same thing?

Offline Karnak

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #183 on: July 20, 2008, 08:24:22 PM »
Elfie,

No, in AH there is no "at fault".  The computers don't care about that at all.  The only thing the code is looking for is if a collision happened.  In your EQ example, even though the computers are next to each other they are both running their on FE and both communicating with the server independently, and thus events being displayed slightly out of sync, particularly, I bet, for actions of the character on one of the computers showing up on the other.

2BigHorn,

In shooting you are trying to hit the image of the other player's aircraft on your FE.  If shooting worked like collisions you'd have to shoot where you thought the other guy was on his FE and mostly just ignore his image on your FE.  Would be silly.  Collisions and shooting work opposite.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #184 on: July 20, 2008, 08:24:48 PM »
Ah OK, so how do they shoot each other if they play in different realities?

Oh yeah, how do we communicate now with extra realities? Is it possible to receive the answer even before you asked the question?

Fascinating...  :confused:
You shoot you see hit sprites. That is sent to you opponent his front end tabulates damage. His wing falls off. That is sent to you then you see his wing fall off. That's why sometimes you shoot an opponent and he goes poof after you stop firing.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2008, 03:42:31 AM »
Quote
No, in AH there is no "at fault".  The computers don't care about that at all.  The only thing the code is looking for is if a collision happened.  In your EQ example, even though the computers are next to each other they are both running their on FE and both communicating with the server independently, and thus events being displayed slightly out of sync, particularly, I bet, for actions of the character on one of the computers showing up on the other.

First, I never said there was an *at fault* in AH.

Second, I know exactly how the *collision* model works in AH. In a 1 vs 1 for example, there aren't just two planes in the fight, there are 4, two on my screen and two on my opponents screen. I only take damage when the game code on MY machine registers a *collision*. My opponent only takes damage when the game code on HIS machine registers a *collision*.

Third, I only used EQ as an example for someone else. That example is to show that it isn't just AH where we never see the same realities at the same times, it's every online game and it doesn't matter if your opponent is in the same room as you playing on your spare comp or is in Australia. It also wasn't just the actions of the two characters that showed visible delays, actions from characters that weren't my own were affected as well. For example, during a raid, the main tank calls assist on a mob, one computer would see that assist call significantly sooner than the other. I know this for a fact because I had audio triggers going off for the assist call (among other things) for both of my machines.

Fourth, I understand why people get confused when we talk about the *collision* model in AH.

People get confused because it isn't like any collision they are familiar with. Like traffic collisions for example. (refer to the definition of collision that I posted earlier) We see a *collision* on our screen and we don't also see what our brains tell us is the results of a normal collision and it causes frustration and confusion for people.
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2008, 07:51:36 AM »
In order to take AH to "reality" you'd be talking about something like people flying planes pulling a towed target that looks like the plane he's flying. You can't see the actual plane they are driving. However you can see the "towed" target plane they pull behind them. How long the rope towing the target is directly tied to latency or lag. The target does everything the lead does, when the information arrives.

So you run into a towed target, you take damage. The guy towing the target was not in a collision, so he doesn't take damage. His Target did, but his target doesn't exist on HIS front end, only yours.

Where you see his "towed target" is not where HE is. He's always going to be ahead of it.
How far depends on how much lag. This is why sometimes you take hits when you can see he hasn't come around enough yet for his guns to bear.

Without the "towed target" it would be impossible to shoot anyone down with any lag.
This is why until we have 0 lag internet for everyone collisions MUST be modeled the way they are modeled.
Any other choice leads to chaos and mayham.

Even 10-20 ms of lag would put the plane your shooting at into the future. You'd have to shoot not at where he is but where he would be when the information arrives. Which if it was the same for all of us would potentially be possible. But with the internet we actually have lag varys tremendously and constantly.



Offline Ghastly

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2008, 09:11:40 AM »
Well that's where a reasonable distance would have to be established.  Like your point, how is it fair if a guy with a good conn shows a collision on his FE due to a guy with a bad conn, then the guy with the bad conn wanders off on his merry way?

Which is something like saying "Someone needs to bell the cat..."   

And enabling collisions to damage both aircraft is like enabling killshooter, in the sense that there are those who will grief other players if there is even a possibility that it might work.

The good news is, this is all ground that's been gone over for almost 20 years, and I'm confident that HTC is unlikely to suddenly go senile and change it to a less optimal mechanism.

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Offline hitech

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2008, 10:07:16 AM »
The good news is, this is all ground that's been gone over for almost 20 years, and I'm confident that HTC is unlikely to suddenly go senile and change it to a less optimal mechanism.

<S>



13 Years ago I wrote the 1 way collision system. Please do not make me feel older than I am.

HiTech

Offline CAP1

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #189 on: July 21, 2008, 10:11:08 AM »
13 Years ago I wrote the 1 way collision system. Please do not make me feel older than I am.

HiTech

age is a state of mind.........

me.......i'm 46 goin on 17 :D :aok
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Offline Motherland

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #190 on: July 21, 2008, 11:46:15 AM »
13 Years ago I wrote the 1 way collision system. Please do not make me feel older than I am.

HiTech
:rofl

Offline Elfie

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #191 on: July 21, 2008, 01:26:04 PM »
13 Years ago I wrote the 1 way collision system. Please do not make me feel older than I am.

HiTech

Has it been so long?  :O    :D
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #192 on: July 21, 2008, 01:31:20 PM »
Quote
In order to take AH to "reality" you'd be talking about something like people flying planes pulling a towed target that looks like the plane he's flying. You can't see the actual plane they are driving. However you can see the "towed" target plane they pull behind them. How long the rope towing the target is directly tied to latency or lag. The target does everything the lead does, when the information arrives.

Thats a really good way to describe how the lag works. 10 - 20ms of total lag (both players lag combined) would be darn close to real time.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline hitech

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #193 on: July 21, 2008, 01:48:11 PM »
Elfie 20ms at 300 mph =~ 10 feet.

Offline -sudz-

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Re: The collision model SUCKS I hate it.
« Reply #194 on: July 21, 2008, 03:34:30 PM »
I have suggested to HiTech that we hold up everyone's frame rate until the server could confirm that everyone was seeing the same thing.  He seemed reluctant to give it a try, arguing that it may take seconds for confirmation and 1 frame per 3 seconds was ridiculous. 

But then I pointed out that there wouldn't be anymore collision threads . . .

 :t