Diffrerence between the F6F-5 and the F6F-3?

[Hornet33]

It has been shown that a rare handful of F6F-5Ns used the 20mm, but most did not. Even photos of them on flight decks (wartime photos) show them with only 50cals in almost every photo out there.

Dude, you're so caught up in your drool over a Hellcat with cannons you can't stop to think properly. 109K-4s were SHIPPED from the factory with MG151 gondolas on, and not ONE plane flew with them in combat. Across the board they all used the nose gun only. Does this mean the 109K-4 should have a perked option of gondolas? Hell no.

Allison powered P-51s had quad hispanos in the same wing as the P-51B. P-51Bs came from the factory with the capability to carry 20mm. Should they? HELL NO.

SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.

F6F-5s had mounts for 20mm on the inboard position. Did any carry any? No. Did any F6F-5Ps? No. Did any F6F-5Ns? A very small number, on a specialized night fighter variant that we don't even have in-game. Should it be in game? HELL FRAK NO.

Seriously? Give it up. You can pretend the tooth fairy exists and say that I have to prove it doesn't when in fact most of the evidence over almost all sources say "no, it doesn't"

Just wanted to ask, since in this thread you ask if a 4 20mm P-51 should be in the game and you respond with HELL NO then why did you say this in anouther thread?

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html

Third response down.

"What I'd like/LOVE to see, possibly perked:

-12x .303 cal guns on the Hurr2C, making a Hurr2B
-2 pods of 2x MG151/20 each for the 190A-5 and A-8 (heavy drag as well)
-extra bomb racks on the later P38s (carrying 4 bombs, sometimes 6)
-if we ever get an Alison P51A, heavily perked 4x20mm option
-50cal option on later spits that still have 4x.303s (9? Nah, 8?)

I'd like to see the malcolm hood on the P51B perked! I'm not kidding, it gives it a huge advantage. If you don't perk it, you get the old greenhouse canopy."

Your back and forth on this subject.

I'm right on track and consistent with my wish. A Perked 20mm option for the F6F-5 with the documentation to back up that it was a factory designed OPTION for that airframe and not a prototype or experimental design. Pyro commented in that thread as well talking about a 57mm armed Mossie, and a few other very rare weapons loads used on other aircraft. So whats wrong with wanting a perked weapons load that was designed from the start to be used on ALL F6F-5 airframes which also happened to be the most heavily used Navy fighter, built in HUGE numbers in the war?

Hell yeah I'm for it and would love to see it in the GAME. Perk that sucker like an F4U-1C and go to town with it.

[B3YT]

SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.





NOT true . I have pics of Spit Vc on a mission With the 4 20mm cannons on a ground attack mission .  it also has bombs on it's center line

[Ack-Ack]

I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.

  From Col. R. Bruce Porter in the "Becoming an ace" section http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html

He was a night fighter pilot.

20MM  F6F-N http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173  and http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947

Those are F6F-5Ns being used in a day time interdiction mission, which was common.  Unlike daytime F6F-5s, F6F-5N squadrons were considered 24 hour operational squadrons and flew missions in both day and night times.

There were also a few day time squadrons that had F6F-5N nighter fighter divisions, in a previous post in this thread I listed those squadrons that had night fighter divisions.  The first picture showing the Hellcats on the carrier deck is probably one of those squadrons.

I thought I had found a good example of a daytime F6F-5 using the 20mm,  until I saw the pilot was John Wayne...doh!

If it had John Wayne in the cockpit, you know it's authentic


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Because there is a lack of evidence does not make it fact that they didn't see service. Out of the 15,000 or so aircraft produced how many pictures of those planes are out there? Maybe a couple hundred if that? I'm not going by a picture, I'm going by the documentation, you know good old ink on paper from Grumman/Goodyear the manufacturer of the planes, and those technical documents, maintence manuals and operator manuals clearly state that the F6F-5 airframe (day fighter, 5N night fighter, and 5P photo recon fighter which by the way are ALL the exact same airframe) was designed from the outset to mount 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations. Those documents also state that there were numerous aircraft delivered from the factories with that gun/cannon package installed.

The evidence is there that they were produced and shipped to the US Navy, and Royal Navy fleets with that configuration.

You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.

Or do you think there is a picture of every single plane that was built and flew in combat?

That's my whole point. The 6 .50's was the typical everyday gun package, BUT it wasn't the only one used. The 20mm package would HAVE to be perked, no doubt about it, but unless you were there in WWII working on every F6F-5 fighter out there and can say with 100% certainty that NO 20mm armed F6F-5 fighter EVER flew in combat, I'll go with the documentation from the factory that says they built them and shipped them armed that way.

You should do a search for the previous threads on this subject, the information is quite enlightening. 

One thing you have to realize that just because it says it fielded such and such gun in the design specs doesn't mean they were built and shipped from the factory that way.  A perfect example is the P-38D, the design specs said it was designed to use the Oldsmobile 37mm cannon but you will never find one instance of a P-38D ever having been built and shipped from the factory with a 37mm cannon.


ack-ack

[angelsandair]

I never got a yes or a no, did the P-40 ever have a 20mm option for it? If so could someone put up a picture?

[Ack-Ack]

 

Here's the carrier pic from above showing the 20mm on a flight deck http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173

The only Hellcats in that picture with 20mm cannons are the first two, the F6F-5Ns.  As stated before, some daytime F6F-5 squadrons had a night fighter division, this squadron obviously being one of them.  This does not prove at all that daytime F6F-5 Hellcats fielded 20mm cannons.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Just wanted to ask, since in this thread you ask if a 4 20mm P-51 should be in the game and you respond with HELL NO then why did you say this in anouther thread?

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html

Third response down.

"What I'd like/LOVE to see, possibly perked:

-12x .303 cal guns on the Hurr2C, making a Hurr2B
-2 pods of 2x MG151/20 each for the 190A-5 and A-8 (heavy drag as well)
-extra bomb racks on the later P38s (carrying 4 bombs, sometimes 6)
-if we ever get an Alison P51A, heavily perked 4x20mm option
-50cal option on later spits that still have 4x.303s (9? Nah, 8?)

In your zeal to prove Krusty wrong, you missed his point.  He was referring to the option of the P-51B/C having a 20mm gun package since the B/C used the same wing as the P-51A, not that he was against having the P-51A added as perked plane.

The fact is, there is no evidence of a daytime F6F-5 squadron using 20mm cannons in the field, all the evidence supports that only specialized F6F-5 units (night squadrons and figher recce squadrons) were equipped with the 20mm cannon in the field.  There are some examples of a very limited number of F6F-5P (figher recce) having a 20mm but I think those were field test beds and not indicitive of the P variant being equipped with 20mm cannons.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

NOT true . I have pics of Spit Vc on a mission With the 4 20mm cannons on a ground attack mission .  it also has bombs on it's center line

Very few flew with the quad 20mm cannons because of the stress it imposed on the wing.  Instead the extra cannons were removed and the extra space was used to double the amount of 20mm cannon rounds for the remaining 2 20mm cannons on the vast majority if the Spitfire Vc.

Also, due to weight considerations, the Vc wasn't able to carry bombs if it was equipped with quad 20mm cannons because of the weight of the cannons and ammunition.


ack-ack

[Karnak]

Very few flew with the quad 20mm cannons because of the stress it imposed on the wing.  Instead the extra cannons were removed and the extra space was used to double the amount of 20mm cannon rounds for the remaining 2 20mm cannons on the vast majority if the Spitfire Vc.

Also, due to weight considerations, the Vc wasn't able to carry bombs if it was equipped with quad 20mm cannons because of the weight of the cannons and ammunition.


ack-ack

I am not aware of any stress issues on the wing.  What I am aware of is heating issues with the outer cannons and performance impacts from the extra weight of the heavy cannons.

[angelsandair]

Answer my question pleeezee!! One of you said the P-40 could hold 20mms! Now it's bugging me like a fat smelly guy on an airplane! 

[Ack-Ack]

Answer my question pleeezee!! One of you said the P-40 could hold 20mms! Now it's bugging me like a fat smelly guy on an airplane! 

Not from what I can find.


ack-ack

[Motherland]

The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).

Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?

Sounds like it was designed to be able to but the option was never actually put into use (like in the case of the P38D)

[Widewing]

In your zeal to prove Krusty wrong, you missed his point.  He was referring to the option of the P-51B/C having a 20mm gun package since the B/C used the same wing as the P-51A, not that he was against having the P-51A added as perked plane.

The fact is, there is no evidence of a daytime F6F-5 squadron using 20mm cannons in the field, all the evidence supports that only specialized F6F-5 units (night squadrons and figher recce squadrons) were equipped with the 20mm cannon in the field.  There are some examples of a very limited number of F6F-5P (figher recce) having a 20mm but I think those were field test beds and not indicitive of the P variant being equipped with 20mm cannons.


ack-ack

It's worth noting that F6F-5Ns with 20mm cannon often flew daytime ops. That's because an all-out strike (called an Alpha Strike today) utilized every available fighter armed with bombs and rockets. Many units flew theirs around the clock. Should the 20mm package be optional in AH2? No....  But, that doesn't mean that the type didn't see combat during daylight hours.

My regards,

Widewing

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Most american aircraft that hoped to carry 20mm never did, not because of the aircraft or the lack of NEEDING it, realy it was the engineers working on the 20mm the americans had.
Always failing to fire, and always jamming under high G, america never did solve these problems and that is why we did not use 20mm on our aircraft.

With the m3 coming into play, after the 45 we did not need cannon.
Shame too, because i think we had around 1+ million 20mm rounds just waiting to be fired.



Might be cool for perked ords tho.


What confuses me, is why the 38's did not have such a problem with the 20mm they had, did it use a diffrent chamber, or..something?

[Greebo]

The Hispano 20mm was originally developed by the French to be mounted in the vee between the cylinder blocks of the Hispano Suiza V12 engine, firing through the propellor hub. This made it easy to give it a very rigid mounting without too much increase in weight, since the block could carry most of the twisting loads. The heat of the engine prevented the gun from freezing at altitude too.

No British or American engine had the ability to mount a cannon in the vee, so their license produced Hispanos were often mounted in the wings. It was far harder for engineers to prevent the cannons jamming as the plane's wing flexed under G forces. They had to make a really stiff but heavy box structure around the gun bay to transfer the loads. The other problem was getting enough heat to the gun to prevent it freezing. This was always a problem with Spitfires which had a very thin wing to route the ducting and was the main reason the four cannon option was hardly ever used on this plane.

The American P-400 and P-39 had their 20mm cannon mounted in the nose where there was less airframe flexing and it was much easier to make a stiff mounting. There was also a lot more room to route hot air ducting.