Adjustment to Scoring (idea)

[crockett]

Just today I saw numerous occasions of guys shooting an aircraft after it was clearly shot down (spinning in no wing/tail) expressly (in my mind) to "get the kill" for more damage done.

My point is that there are more score padding activities than just spawn camping/vulching, of course spawn camping is a "new" phenom to us "oldies" who played the game without GV's (which I personally don't care for but this another whole topic).

Good Grief my english sentence construction abilities are on vacation

No one is saying there isn't other ways to pad score. The idea really isn't about score but rather about giving incentive to fight by adjusting the score given. I'm simply saying we should take way the score reward for it which in return adds more incentive to actualy fight.

[Murdr]

I don't really agree with that, maybe in the past it worked that way but not now. The way it works now days is typically the bigger hoard pushes the other cons back to the point they can start vulching. It's little more than a mass of lopsided numbers that typically leads to a vulch these days.

I pretty much do nothing but defend anymore, mostly at bases getting attacked by CV's.. (mainly because I like low alt fights) I see it time and time again, some mass hoard will up off the CV and the first thing they try to do is deack the base to start vulching. I up at vulched bases all the time and I see them get pushed back and next thing you know the vulchers are soon hiding in CV ack then they stop upping after that.

I don't know.  It sounds to me like a fight took place in your example.  They moved in for the vulch, that incited your guys to kick them the heck out.  It sounds very much like the kind of AAR that HTC likes to hear.

You did complain that it didn't sustain a furball, but it has always been the case that depending on the terrain and where the front lines are, you may have to play "wack a mole" to get to the current furball, and that it may evaporate and move elsewhere quickly.

[Zazen13]

I have alot more respect for the guys who DON'T fly La7's, Spit XVI's, Dora 9's than I do for the ones that rack up big scores in those planes, and as for tank/flack/ground gun scores I just have no respect for that since I just don't care for that aspect of the game.

That reminds me of a related idea I had a long time ago. Wouldn't it be great if we had Top 50 Fighter Pilot list for each plane-type. Of course, to make that meaningful we'd have to remove vulching from scoring...But, it's a fun idea and would probably encourage people to diversify from the *hyper-modelled* rides.

[Murdr]

I'm not questioning your conviction to the game for one solitary second. But, for the sake of interesting debate and in giving Strafing his "money's worth" for his ideas I have to admit that so far your argument that vulching is a necessary component of gameplay and scoring are not compelling at all. We can just agree to disagree here or you can try to persuade us to a better understanding of that viewpoint. My intellectual curiosity would prefer you attempt to persuade us...

I accidentally lost the reply to this...I'll try again.

Listening to Doug and Dale talking about playing other games (like RPG and FPS games), it was pretty clear they acknowledged not only was beating the other guy when they were helpless "fun" from a player perspective, but that players will go out of their way to make it happen.  If you look at the example of Air Warrior, the Flak came into being in a flight sim, because players found they could land bombers behind the enemy runways spawn...to vulch.  Then they found that players were willing to drive for an hour to those enemy fields to sit there with the flak...to vulch.  Then tanks were added to address that issue.  But of course, those tanks were used to vulch also, and you can read how one AW player named HiTech went out of his way to do that sort of thing in an old thread.  It is pretty safe to assume it's a general rule that players will go to great lengths to find a way to beat the other guy when he is helpless.  So with that in mind, why not try to channel players behavior by having them jump through hoops of the developers making (ie. what they intend for gameplay), to get to a goal that will remain constant whether the developer wants it or not. 

So I didn't say it was a "necessary" part of the game, but it is player nature, and it has figured into their gameplay architecture.

Personally, I just find it fun.  If you changed the rules of the game to say "that never happend", I feel at some level that is an infringement on my fun.  But I don't see that happening

[Murdr]

Yea but if the score more accurately reflected skill with less manipulation from no skill kills, then maybe more people would care.

This discusion is like 2 guys golfing. 1 guy wins (hence better at golf) the other argues that he is realy better because he can hit the longest drive.

And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?


HiTech

Boy that golf scoring system must be totaly screwed, because the best golfer I know of dosn't care to try for a good score any more, and instead just goes out to see how many hole in ones he can make. But lesser players always get better scores. Man that golf score system sucks. It just dosn't reflect who is the better gollfer.

HiTech

You've pretty much made my point that context matters.

If a sizeable number of players in golf suddenly played only to see how many holes in one they could make while everyone else played for score, then the golf scoring system would not provide an accurate measure of skill.  It would rank winners and losers based on existing golf rules, sure, but as a metric for skill it would suffer.

The AH scoring system is a bit more complex to compare to something like a golf score anyway.  I hate to say it, but it seems closer to figure skating than golf. 

-- Todd/Leviathn

Bull puppy.

The system would still accuratly provide a measure of golf skill. But your players are no longer playing golf they are now playing a different game. And since your players are not interested in their golf score, they wouldn't even keep track.

So are you interested in playing golf, or do you just want to head to the driving range. Both are perfectly acceptible, but don't try tell the golfers they should forget about it and just go to the driving range instead, because in your view distance is the only TRUE method for messuring a golfers talents.

HiTech

Somewhat of a sidetrack, but the point being is that the scoring rules apply to everyone.  If you choose only to play the game the way you prefer, that is fine.  However if someone scores better than you, it doesn't really matter how they did it.  If it bugs you, and you TRUELY are better at Aces High than them, it shouldn't be a problem for you to go and outscore them.  If it's not important enough to make that effort, don't demand the rules of the game be changed to suit you.

[crockett]

I don't know.  It sounds to me like a fight took place in your example.  They moved in for the vulch, that incited your guys to kick them the heck out.  It sounds very much like the kind of AAR that HTC likes to hear.

You did complain that it didn't sustain a furball, but it has always been the case that depending on the terrain and where the front lines are, you may have to play "wack a mole" to get to the current furball, and that it may evaporate and move elsewhere quickly.

I have to disagree, because what typically happens is they either just come back and bomb all the FH's or they just stop fighting and go somewhere else that has less resistance. It just seems like the current trend is to do anything but fight and I sure hope that's not what HTC intended with this game.

[saantana]

This really comes down to a l33t player base who have been here for a long time and have mastered ACM (crockett, skyrock, wmlute to name a few the two last of which always kick my behind) and a newer player set (such as myself, only have 6 or 7 tours under my belt) arguing over game play.
The l33t set of players don't like getting vulched, hoed, rammed etc and wish everyone would engage them in their own perfected, 'pure' style of dogfighting so that, they could always win? And give others the incentive to try to stop killing them on the runways, because it pisses them off.
Im not as l33t as you guys and am not afraid to admit it. I try to get along. Oh and I love vulching. I avoid ho's when I can and I certainly don't ram. But I definitely love vulching. Hell, I'll clear a field of ack, get killed in the process and announce on country 'vulch fest ready at a45' for example.
Whats wrong with that?

[Murdr]

I have to disagree, because what typically happens is they either just come back and bomb all the FH's or they just stop fighting and go somewhere else that has less resistance. It just seems like the current trend is to do anything but fight and I sure hope that's not what HTC intended with this game.

Yet I do not see how removing a fun part of the game has an impact on that.  Those players WILL just find another way to score without fighting, except a focal point where you can jump them anyways will be removed.  In the mean time, I will continue to vulch at any opportunity as HT put it (paraphrasing) "just to piss the other guy off"

[Zazen13]

Personally, I just find it fun.  If you changed the rules of the game to say "that never happend", I feel at some level that is an infringement on my fun.  But I don't see that happening

Yea, as I said before I have been on this ride a few times. I am debating this because I truly believe in my position with all of my heart, not because I hold any hope for a change in "policy" from HTC on the issue.

I don't think what Strafing is proposing would ruin the fun you and presumably a lot derive from destroying the helpless. Thirty seconds is only barely enough time to start your engine, get to full RPM's, get airborne, get your gear up and get just enough E to perform a single lazy 90 degree break-turn without pancaking in a light fighter, nothing more. I think in both AW and AH, the motivation for most to kill the helpless as you described came/comes from the buffer candy and subsequent "atta-boys" more so than the 'fun-factor' of "ripping the wings off flies". I will be the first to admit I don't understand the appeal of vulching. But, I find it hard to believe, over the long-term, that most people could possibly continue to find vulching helpless enemy fun if there were no other reward (ie: score, buffer candy/public adoration, easy base captures, satisfaction for griefing addicts, etc.).

[Zazen13]

Somewhat of a sidetrack, but the point being is that the scoring rules apply to everyone.  If you choose only to play the game the way you prefer, that is fine.  However if someone scores better than you, it doesn't really matter how they did it.  If it bugs you, and you TRUELY are better at Aces High than them, it shouldn't be a problem for you to go and outscore them.  If it's not important enough to make that effort, don't demand the rules of the game be changed to suit you.

Yea, Levi and I went through this several years ago. You can't compare apples to oranges. Saying your apple is bigger than his orange is the same as comparing the score-sheet of a guy who vulches to one who does not. But, I think the point Strafing was trying to get across that we're not addressing is that of gameplay, not score. He proposes removing the "score candy" from vulching as a means to the end of improving gameplay. Sure, people will still semi-vulch the E bankrupt uppers. But at least it's not just a "free-kill" garnered simply by pendulum passes on the static takeoff spots.

[crockett]

I accidentally lost the reply to this...I'll try again.

Listening to Doug and Dale talking about playing other games (like RPG and FPS games), it was pretty clear they acknowledged not only was beating the other guy when they were helpless "fun" from a player perspective, but that players will go out of their way to make it happen.  If you look at the example of Air Warrior, the Flak came into being in a flight sim, because players found they could land bombers behind the enemy runways spawn...to vulch.  Then they found that players were willing to drive for an hour to those enemy fields to sit there with the flak...to vulch.  Then tanks were added to address that issue.  But of course, those tanks were used to vulch also, and you can read how one AW player named HiTech went out of his way to do that sort of thing in an old thread.  It is pretty safe to assume it's a general rule that players will go to great lengths to find a way to beat the other guy when he is helpless.  So with that in mind, why not try to channel players behavior by having them jump through hoops of the developers making (ie. what they intend for gameplay), to get to a goal that will remain constant whether the developer wants it or not. 

So I didn't say it was a "necessary" part of the game, but it is player nature, and it has figured into their gameplay architecture.

Personally, I just find it fun.  If you changed the rules of the game to say "that never happend", I feel at some level that is an infringement on my fun.  But I don't see that happening

I understand people will figure out some way to game the game, but why continue to reward them for it?

 This isn't a case of one guy being better than the other in a 1 on 1 match. That's exactly what those of us who wanna fight wish for. Beating the other guy because you are better or losing because you aren't. I just took some screen shots that kinda prove the point I'm getting at with the hoards and so on.

I just took these in the Orange MA.. (sorry my photoshop needs to be reinstalled so I had to use MS paint and couldn't re-size the images)

This is while I'm on the Bish.. This is the lower right side of the map.. There is 3 Dar bars of Rook attacking the Bish, with less than a single Dar bar defending..
http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/right.JPG

Now this next SS is the left side of the map showing Bish and Nits fight.. Notice there is no fight between Bish / Nits other than a big Bish hoard at A112.

http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/left.JPG

Now we see the top half of the map after I switch to the Rook side..Notice there are almost no Rooks defending against the Nits.

http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/top.JPG


This is how it almost always works anymore.. Team A hoards Team B, then team B hoards team C, then team C hoards team A.  The only change comes when the map is unbalanced and allows two teams to hoard one. There are very few even fights that produce sustained fighting it's always a big hoard at one end of the map or the other and just a few defenders at the other side.

Now I'm not saying any team hoards more than the next, I switch teams all the time to be on the lowest number or to try to find the best fights.. In the end they are all the same because that's how players have found the easiest path.  

The simple fact is the game does very little to discourage the hoards but rather encourages them. We need the game to discourage this type of thing and encourage actual fighting.

Another idea that I've posted in the past would be to have ENY affected by sections of the map to discourage the unbalanced hoarding, but that's a different topic.

[saantana]

I understand people will figure out some way to game the game, but why continue to reward them for it?

 This isn't a case of one guy being better than the other in a 1 on 1 match. That's exactly what those of us who wanna fight wish for. Beating the other guy because you are better or losing because you aren't. I just took some screen shots that kinda prove the point I'm getting at with the hoards and so on.

I just took these in the Orange MA.. (sorry my photoshop needs to be reinstalled so I had to use MS paint and couldn't re-size the images)

This is while I'm on the Bish.. This is the lower right side of the map.. There is 3 Dar bars of Rook attacking the Bish, with less than a single Dar bar defending..
http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/right.JPG

Now this next SS is the left side of the map showing Bish and Nits fight.. Notice there is no fight between Bish / Nits other than a big Bish hoard at A112.

http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/left.JPG

Now we see the top half of the map after I switch to the Rook side..Notice there are almost no Rooks defending against the Nits.

http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/top.JPG


This is how it almost always works anymore.. Team A hoards Team B, then team B hoards team C, then team C hoards team A.  The only change comes when the map is unbalanced and allows two teams to hoard one. There are very few even fights that produce sustained fighting it's always a big hoard at one end of the map or the other and just a few defenders at the other side.

Now I'm not saying any team hoards more than the next, I switch teams all the time to be on the lowest number or to try to find the best fights.. In the end they are all the same because that's how players have found the easiest path. 

The simple fact is the game does very little to discourage the hoards but rather encourages them. We need the game to discourage this type of thing and encourage actual fighting.

Another idea that I've posted in the past would be to have ENY affected by sections of the map to discourage the unbalanced hoarding, but that's a different topic.

Why do you want the game to discourage something that others may find fun, and it just so happens that you don't?
I understand your point. It's just that other peoples views might be different than yours.

[Murdr]

Another idea that I've posted in the past would be to have ENY affected by sections of the map to discourage the unbalanced hoarding, but that's a different topic.

Yes, I would like the ENY to be more localized.  Many times I have been at the other end of the map from the friendly horde opposing the enemy horde.  It's frustrating when you are vastly outnumbered locally, AND have a limited planeset.

Which reminds me of one of very few suggestions I've ever made regarding the scoring system vs enemy proxy modifier

[Zazen13]

Yes, I would like the ENY to be more localized.  Many times I have been at the other end of the map from the friendly horde opposing the enemy horde.  It's frustrating when you are vastly outnumbered locally, AND have a limited planeset.

Which reminds me of one of very few suggestions I've ever made regarding the scoring system vs enemy proxy modifier

I brought this exact thing up in the original ENY discussion thread HiTech started before the ENY limiter was implemented. I don't recall what HiTech's response (if any) was to my assertion that this was a critical flaw of the "global" ENY system he was proposing, I'll have to look it up.

[crockett]

Why do you want the game to discourage something that others may find fun, and it just so happens that you don't?
I understand your point. It's just that other peoples views might be different than yours.

If you don't vulch, then why are you so worried about what I'm suggesting?