Waffen SS Squad?

[Bronk]

When was the last time that congress voted to officially declare war?  WWII.  I had to check to make sure we didn't declare war for the korean war, and we didn't.  Lots and lots of congressional authorizations, but it's a way for congress to cover its bellybutton so that when %#*! goes wrong they can blame someone else.

What can I say, it's written in the constitution that congress has the power to declare war.  This goes along with our signing up for all sorts of treaties that we break time and time again.  We ought not to sign them unless we plan to honor them.  Intentionally bombing civilians is a great example of this.

True, but congress did authorize the use of military force. Kinda like saying " If you don't smarten up, we'll come and do it for you.".  Not like we didn't warn em. But I'm sure you can find more fault with this country.

[dentin]

The Japanese leadership is at fault for these figures. They put the events in motion the moment the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor.

Very true statement.

 Solution to ALL conflicts/wars....remove the politicians from BOTH/ALL sides..your choice of methods. 

[MajIssue]

Off subject: As a veteran of war, I can tell the readers that there is no horror that compares to visiting a battlefield 4-6 hours after the shooting has ceased, or living through a firefight or Artillery barrage. With that said, it amazes me that so many people want to blame the United States for all of the damage done to German and Japanese cities during the strategic bombing campaigns of WW2. Please bear in mind that the United States was perfectly content to sit out WW2 as a neutral. Japan Attacked (then declared war 15 minutes later), and Germany declared war on the United States the next day. It was the Axis powers that first started bombing cities, not the allies.

I disagree with the concept of area bombing that was practiced by RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF in the Pacific, because (with 20/20 hindsight) that tactic was ineffective at significantly reducing the output of war materials. Additionally the argument that area bombing would demoralize the populace was simply incorrect and instead had the opposite effect. Also, the number of civilian casualties from area bombing was, in my view, unacceptable.

Back to the WaffenSS. There were WaffenSS military units that fought with honor and did not partake in war crimes, but the vast majority of the organization stains the record of these few... When blaming the German people for bringing the Nazi Party  to power it is helpful to remember that the NSDAP never won a majority of seats in the Riechstag! Also in the Presidential Election runoff in 1932 almost 2/3 of the German electorate voted against Hitler.  Hitler's seized power and outlawed his political opposition once he was appointed Reich's Chancellor in a coalition Government. Contrast this with the US that elected Roosevelt that same year and with the UK which selects it's prime Minister from the Majority Party in free elections. In Japan and the USSR the opposite was in effect with a dictatorial monarchy and a socialist dictatorship  respectively.

My Conclusion is that the Allies were the good guys! There were horrors committed by all warring parties, but only in the axis countries (and the USSR) were the enslavement and destruction of entire populations and/or races condoned and even welcomed at a government level.

[Bronk]

I disagree with the concept of area bombing that was practiced by RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF in the Pacific, because (with 20/20 hindsight) that tactic was ineffective at significantly reducing the output of war materials. Additionally the argument that area bombing would demoralize the populace was simply incorrect and instead had the opposite effect. Also, the number of civilian casualties from area bombing was, in my view, unacceptable.

 

Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.

[SmokinLoon]

*sigh* 

Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that commited far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them.  Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research.  Both of those make the SS look like child's play.

If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well.  Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted.  Friggin whiners. 

Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield.  The lot of them were awesome.  They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units.  Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished.  Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.

[MajIssue]

Well people forget that bombing then isn't like bombing now. Any bombing done from alt was area bombing. And yes..yes fire bombing is a whole 'nother thing.

The US 8th Air Force at least ATTEMPTED to make daylight precision bombing work. Most targets were vital military targets. It is true that bombing accuracy was no where near the level today's munitions offer. That's why it took a wing of B-17s to do what ONE JDAM equipped F-15E could do in terms of destroying a specific target. I lived in Fulda Germany in the early 90s and saw a museum exhibit about the bombing of Fulda. It has a large marshalling yard and a tire plant near the center of town. It was bombed twice by the USAAF in late 1944. there was some bomb damage in the center of town  (I counted 10-12 500lb. bomb craters in the inner city based on the photographs in the exhibit) but not nearly the level it would have been if the RAF had done an area bombing raid at night. Overall the post war US Strategic Bombing survey gives positive but mixed (usually due to wind/weather) results to the bombing accuracy of the 8th Air Force efforts over Europe.

[Anaxogoras]

True, but congress did authorize the use of military force. Kinda like saying " If you don't smarten up, we'll come and do it for you.".  Not like we didn't warn em. But I'm sure you can find more fault with this country.

Defending and upholding the constitution is the highest duty of elected office.

[2bighorn]

*sigh* 
Both of those make the SS look like child's play.

Stupid squeakers

Child play:
The Holocaust took the lives of between 5.1 to 6.0 million Jews, 130,000 to 500,000 Gypsies, 150,000 to 200,000 handicapped persons, 2.6 to 3 million Soviet prisoners of war, 1.8 to 1.9 million Poles, 4.5 to 8.2 million Soviet civilians and 160,000 Germans.

That's what SS was about and what Waffen SS was fighting for.

[saantana]

*sigh* 

some irrelevant text here

Yeah, do some research 
Friggin whiners.    
Both of those make the SS look like child's play. 

The lot of them were awesome.  + Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed. 

[Bruv119]

as a sidenote its still in game as of  last night.

[Guppy35]

*sigh* 

Yeah, the SS were not a nice bunch, but the Soviets had units that commited far more attrocities and yet people tend to forget (or never know) them.  Oh, and remember our allies the Nationalist Chinese (heck, even the Red Chinese)??? Yeah, do some research.  Both of those make the SS look like child's play.

If a group of guys were to use the "SS" in their name, oh well.  Move on to other more important things and stop WANTING ti be insulted.  Friggin whiners. 

Oh, and dont belittle the professionalism these soldiers displayed on the battlefield.  The lot of them were awesome.  They were far more diciplined and porfessional than most of the allied troop units.  Leave their political association aside and take a moment to see what they accomplished.  Disclaimer: I'm not defending the atrocities they committed.

You base this on what?  Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things.  This thread made me take  "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf.  It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45.  A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches.  Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940.  After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered.  They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead.  2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.

That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'.  I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc. 

Seperate the two things though.  Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war.  They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.

[evenhaim]

You base this on what?  Fanaticism and professionalism are two different things.  This thread made me take  "Soldiers of Destruction" of the shelf.  It's the history of the Totenkopf Division 1933-45.  A very complete history and doesn't pull any punches.  Just read through the part where 100 men of the British 2nd Royal Norfolk held up Totenkopf during the Battle of France 1940.  After being overrun by superior firepower and numbers the survivors surrendered.  They were promptly pushed in to a wall farm yard, put against the wall and machine gunned while 100s of Totenkopf soldiers watch. Those soldiers then went through the bodies bayoneting them to make sure they were dead.  2 of the 100 survived under the bodies somehow and were picked up by following Whermacht soldiers who kept them alive to be POWs.

That they looked 'kewl' and had 'kewl' stuff, doesn't change what they were, and trust me I went through that stage where I thought they were 'kewl'.  I built lots of 1/35th German armor and equipment back when I was in high school, and remember trying to get the neato SS camoflage tunics and helmet covers just right, etc etc. 

Seperate the two things though.  Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war.  They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.

Great post.

[Rich46yo]

perate the two things though.  Fanatical devotion to Hitler, under a direct line of authority from Hitler to Himmler on down, never changed throughout the war.  They weren't just regular soldiers of the German Army.

They were never "regular soldiers of the German army". In fact the story of the SS is quite a strange one. Even still there are many inaccuracies recorded by history.

I understand Evenhaims reaction when the SS are mentioned. At this time I feel I must remind all that the seeds of anti semitism were spread thruout Europe at the time of the war. In many occupied countries the Germans hardly even needed to prod the conqured Govt.'s to hunt their own Jews down for "special treatment". How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal. How about the Swiss? The Swiss Govt. could be called the bankers of the Final Solution because they were all to willing to launder the wealth stolen from Europes jews.

Norway, the Baltics, the Vatican and Catholic church, Romania, Hungary, Croaitia, Serbia,  the Ukraine. There is so much Jewish and Roma blood on so many European hands it is childish to only blame the SS for the Holocaust.

Are there any squads named after the German army? Well the German army fought a ruthless racial war of extermination on the eastern front. From the beginning they were told by Hitler they were fighting against Jewish Bolshivism, were to be utterly ruthless, and in turn they responded with great zeal.  They turned over Jews and other "inferiors" to the Einsatzgruppen by the Tens of thousands, had no mercy for Russian POWs, and even participated in ghetto liquidations. In fact it could be said that some German army units had more genocidal blood on their hands then many SS combat units. Besides, after July 1944, the army and other armed forces took the same personal oath to Hitler that the SS did.

Its just simplistic to single out the SS. There was just to much guilt to go around.

[Dowding]

How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal.

How many Escadrille manned concentration camps were there exactly?

[Anaxogoras]

They were never "regular soldiers of the German army". In fact the story of the SS is quite a strange one. Even still there are many inaccuracies recorded by history.

I understand Evenhaims reaction when the SS are mentioned. At this time I feel I must remind all that the seeds of anti semitism were spread thruout Europe at the time of the war. In many occupied countries the Germans hardly even needed to prod the conqured Govt.'s to hunt their own Jews down for "special treatment". How do you feel about nameing a AH squadron a French name? Well the French Vichy Govt., and Police, hunted down and robbed French Jews with a particular zeal. How about the Swiss? The Swiss Govt. could be called the bankers of the Final Solution because they were all to willing to launder the wealth stolen from Europes jews.

Norway, the Baltics, the Vatican and Catholic church, Romania, Hungary, Croaitia, Serbia,  the Ukraine. There is so much Jewish and Roma blood on so many European hands it is childish to only blame the SS for the Holocaust.

Are there any squads named after the German army? Well the German army fought a ruthless racial war of extermination on the eastern front. From the beginning they were told by Hitler they were fighting against Jewish Bolshivism, were to be utterly ruthless, and in turn they responded with great zeal.  They turned over Jews and other "inferiors" to the Einsatzgruppen by the Tens of thousands, had no mercy for Russian POWs, and even participated in ghetto liquidations. In fact it could be said that some German army units had more genocidal blood on their hands then many SS combat units. Besides, after July 1944, the army and other armed forces took the same personal oath to Hitler that the SS did.

Its just simplistic to single out the SS. There was just to much guilt to go around.

Once I actually read some scholarly history books on the subject, it became clear to me that the eastern front invasion was more about liquidating jews than actually accomplishing military objectives, even if a lot of the wehrmacht and other regular military didn't realize it.  Like you say, other countries were eager to participate in the liquidation, especially Romania: their secret police engaged in murdering rampages that even horrified the Nazis.

As for shooting prisoners, you guys are getting all pc here.  Shooting prisoners was commonplace in WW1, and there's a good argument that half the reason German soldiers started surrendering in 1918 was that the Brits had finally stopped shooting surrendering soldiers.  Deplorable as it is, shooting prisoners has nothing to do with political affiliation, and far more to do with the psychology of warfare and the willingness of officers to look the other way.