Author Topic: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions  (Read 988 times)

Offline HAMMERR

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SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« on: August 06, 2008, 09:55:31 AM »
I usually fly the J model for fighter activity... However I've been looking into the L model and its dive flaps. 

Questions to be answered.

1. What sort of dive redline am I looking at before compression sets in in the 38L? 
2. Do most of you use vertical approaches for targets like VHs or 45deg angle ones?  (or other?)
3. What alt do you begin your runs at?
4. What is the order of operations?

(for example, in my F4UD on a VH it is the following)
salvo 99, select rockets
Direct over target nose high until stall, hammerhead over and straight down.
Throttle cut gear out CT on
fire rockets ASAP, switch to bombs, pickle bombs
Gear up, WEP, 3-4G pullout into 65deg zoom.  zoom till 200mph and level and or reverse for fighter engaugements.

5. Do you use dive flaps during BnZ passes on fighters?
6. If you get into compression, what is your tatic for getting out?  (I usually try to trim up on elevator and apply full rudder to the skyward side of the aircraft to induce a skid as i chop throttle)

Offline Widewing

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 10:40:30 AM »
Our P-38s begin to buffet at Mach 0.66, with full compressibility onset at Mach 0.68. My advice is to use 460 mph TAS (true air speed; the red pointer) as you marker, especially above 10k. Above 20k, use 440 mph TAS. Go above these speeds and buffeting will be quickly encountered, followed swiftly by full compression.

Also, the dive recovery flaps only work if Combat Trim is disabled. This is due to Combat Trim automatically trimming the aircraft to offset the pitch-up induced by the recovery flaps. So, disable CT and trim elevator neutral. There's almost no instance where rudder and aileron trim need to be touched.

If properly trimmed, and with the recovery flaps deployed, the P-38L will pull out of dive at 3g, hands off.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SgtPappy

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 10:47:09 AM »
The L drivers from SAPP don't recommend using the dive-flaps as such a tool.

1) To answer your first question, it really depends on your altitude. The higher you go, the easier it is to compress. A lot of the information out there likes to milk just how easy it is to get into compression, but it really isn't too bad. When I dive down to attack enemies in the P-38J, I'll usually be rudder-ing side to side, and rolling slowly with closed throttles because chances are that the enemy's going to rip him/herself apart if he/she dives at full throttle.

At altitudes below 20K where I hope you're doing your jabo work, you'll find it hard to get into compression under 470 mph. When you're dive-bombing, you never want to be going full throttle anyway.

2) Most of my approaches towards ground targets are weird. They are from either directly above or, if its some Osti or other, I'll usually circle it while pitching up and down, roll over sharply and rocket it. This prevents it from hitting you as you get closer and closer. It's usually a sort of preference. I never have to even consider using dive-flaps in jabo work.

3) Depending no the target, the alts differ. They can be a max of 5K if I'm trying to avoid ack. That being said, I almost never attack alone. I'd need a wingie to divide up the ack.

4) Operations... not too sure what you mean. Do you mean the order of dive, shoot, attack etc? If so I usually circle the field and then simply fly in from a high angle and shoot at a few targets, then zoom back up, but not perfectly straight up. You have to take all precautions to avoid ground fire. I never fly level over the field for more than 2 seconds either.

5) Using the dive-flaps should only be used if you REALLY are in desperate need to get out of compression. Never have I used them on a BnZ run. Used improperly, they'll just cause unnecessary drag and your zoom wont be as good since you did not have the speed you could of had during the dive.

6) Keep doing what you're doing. When in the P-38J, I use trim to get out of compression with no throttle. When flying 109's, I do the same thing. In the P-38L, you can use the dive flaps but you can always trim out as well. Upward elevator trim and the plane should pull itself out. Like WW said, you're going to have to disable combat trim because as you go faster, the CT will push your nose down in an attempt to stabalize your plane. This is not good since you want to go up, which is why we trim up during compression.

Perhaps the SAPP boys can correct me on some things as they have MUCH more experience than myself, but these are my suggestions and they've worked for me so far. 
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 10:52:59 AM »
Ok, forgive the small hijack, but besides the dive flaps the J and L seem to have identical performance, but the L has a better ordinance package.  People say they prefer the J because of the skins.  Are there other important differences?
gavagai
334th FS


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Offline Widewing

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 11:48:13 AM »

5) Using the dive-flaps should only be used if you REALLY are in desperate need to get out of compression. Never have I used them on a BnZ run. Used improperly, they'll just cause unnecessary drag and your zoom wont be as good since you did not have the speed you could of had during the dive.

Perhaps the SAPP boys can correct me on some things as they have MUCH more experience than myself, but these are my suggestions and they've worked for me so far. 

One thing Pappy, the dive recovery flaps generate no drag whatsoever. I know that sounds very odd, but I have tested it with CT on and with CT off; trimmed for hands off flight. Trimmed level at 288 mph... Speed constant. Dump the recovery flaps and there is no speed change, even after several minutes. What they do is cause induced drag by pitching the nose up. However, the flap "boards" themselves don't seem to have any drag associated with them.

My regards,

Widewing

 
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 12:37:43 PM »


5) Using the dive-flaps should only be used if you REALLY are in desperate need to get out of compression. Never have I used them on a BnZ run. Used improperly, they'll just cause unnecessary drag and your zoom wont be as good since you did not have the speed you could of had during the dive.



As WW pointed out, there is no drag penatly with the dive flaps in the L.   The drag comes from the nose pitching up and not the flaps themselves.  In real life, some P-38L drivers would use the dive flaps to help them in high speed turns (above 300mph IAS) since the dive flaps would quickly pitch the nose up but they had to quickly raise the dive flap afterwards or run the risk of losing valuable E due to the drag associated with the nose pitching up.  In this game, you can also use the dive flaps the same way but it won't help at speeds below 300mph IAS.


ack-ack
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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 09:40:46 PM »
Thanks WW and Ack. That's very strange. I hope they fix that soon enough...

Anaxogras, I personally find no diff between the L and J except for the better ailerons on the J. In reality the J had engines that could produce more power - 1725 hp each, in fact - yet they were retained to 1600 hp each I think for maintainability or something of the sort.
I am a Spitdweeb

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 09:53:20 PM »
Thanks WW and Ack. That's very strange. I hope they fix that soon enough...

Fix what?  The drag from the dive flaps?  The drag as WW pointed out wasn't from the flaps but rather from the nose pitching up.  The intent of the dive flaps was to change the airflow not to slow the plane down by adding increased drag.  In real life, the dive flaps provided minimum drag, unlike the normal flaps.


Quote
Anaxogras, I personally find no diff between the L and J except for the better ailerons on the J. In reality the J had engines that could produce more power - 1725 hp each, in fact - yet they were retained to 1600 hp each I think for maintainability or something of the sort.

So did the L.


ack-ack

"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Guppy35

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 10:07:34 PM »
It's interesting to note comments from wartime 38 drivers when they went from no power assited ailerons to power assist.  It was a transition and they could usually tell when someone was first changing as they'd flutter off the ground over compensating for the ailerons.

I was reading up on a theme for the next SAPP night and one pilot commented on how he was flying tail end charlie and wingman to the number 3 guy in the flight.  When they got jumped by high 190s his element lead broke hard and he couldn't keep up with the break without the power assist and lost his lead.

He was later in the fight shot down and didn't find out until after the war that his lead had power assist.

So clearly there was a difference.  I 99% of the time am in the 38G but will fly the J.  I think the L feels 'heavier' and I think I tend to over control with the power assisted ailerons where the J is closer to the G and feels more normal to me in the game.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline HAMMERR

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 11:13:26 PM »
Thanks for all the Fantastic answers fellas.   :salute

Offline mipoikel

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2008, 11:06:37 AM »
I dont understand SAPP-members.. they should NOT answer questions considering P38 because SAPP is a SAPP.
At least they should keep silence in public forums and share information only in their secret meetings and only for people who are members in SAPP.

 :noid
I am a spy!

Offline Delirium

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 12:26:48 PM »
We don't take anything seriously, and freely encourage anyone to fly the Lightning.

Besides, per the mandate handed down from our Superiors, we must convert AH as a whole to fly P38s until that is all that is left in AH.
Delirium
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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 08:54:05 PM »
Fix what?  The drag from the dive flaps?  The drag as WW pointed out wasn't from the flaps but rather from the nose pitching up.  The intent of the dive flaps was to change the airflow not to slow the plane down by adding increased drag.  In real life, the dive flaps provided minimum drag, unlike the normal flaps.


yes, I realize that they weren't meant to slow down the plane, however, doesn't it strike you as ridiculous to produce ZERO drag?
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 10:01:58 PM »
I dont understand SAPP-members.. they should NOT answer questions considering P38 because SAPP is a SAPP.
At least they should keep silence in public forums and share information only in their secret meetings and only for people who are members in SAPP.

 :noid

You don't REALLY think accurate and valid information has actually been posted, do you? :noid
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Guppy35

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Re: SAPP! Help me! P38L dive bomb/dive flap questions
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2008, 05:32:43 PM »
This comment in the 5th FC 'bible'  "Twelve to One" caught me by surprise.  it's from Elliot Summers a Squadron Commander with the 432nd FS, 475th FG and an ace.

"Tactics probable with P38L and G-Suit-This combination makes possible many new tactics both offensively and defensively.  The G-suit, aileron boost and dive brakes allow for very high speed dives, tight turns, abrupt pull-outs and a high rate of roll.  I found it impossible for me to black out, although I indicated 575mph, dropped dive flaps and reefed in as tight as possible.  The pull-out was so severe as to buckle the wings."


That I've never done in AH :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters