South Osetia under attack

[RedTop]

Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!!  Do you know what you're saying??  You REALLY want a war with Russia? 
Do realize what that will do?  Do you understand who Russia's allies are?  You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be..  United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were too afraid or weak to do it alone)..  This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents..  They will bring the war to the U.S. 

C'mon man...  War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world..  It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big..  Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..   
You do not understand the Russian mind....  Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties..  Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity..  We in the west are mostly blind to this..   

Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves..  Russia's economy is booming....  The US had been funding Russia's disarmament..  However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment..  This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's..  They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites...  And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities..  AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....

I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming..  They were/are preparing for this..  They could care less what the rest of the world thinks..  Putin is an Emperor..  He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days..  He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence..  And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult..  HIS finger is STILL on the button..

You really and truly want that?  For you?  For your family?  For your kids??

Think about what you're saying....  I realize the situation..  Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region.  I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline..  After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls..  But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation?  Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second..  Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power)..  That is reality..  They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry)..  That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world.. 
This could be it..

Good Post....

I'll just say that the U.S. has recently lost all it's balls for anything. We can't beat russia...It's mutal distuction and economic ruin to fight them. Then communist china will be the only superpower left.

Keep your friends close...and your enemies closer.

No country is totally an allie any more....save Britian and the U.S. maybe.....The whole world would be just sitting back waiting for us to destroy one another...and they would be fighting over whats left.

[Hangtime]

So...we did not provide assistance to the mujahideen in Afghanistan?  We did not contribute to the Islamic ruled state?

edit:

From Wikipedia (I know..but at this hour, I don't have time or energy to go "deeper"): 

On July 3, 1979, U.S. President Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[3] Following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and installation of a more pro-Soviet president, Babrak Karmal, Carter announced, "The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War".

That's not the horsepucky part. Find me a link to a single US helicopter or Aircraft shot down in Afghanistan with a Stinger Missile provided to the Mujahideen 20 years perviously. You won't. Why? No replacement batteries. Even the Chinese attempt at building a battery that will run that device failed. Fuel is stagnant also... limited lifespan weapon.

Hence; Bullpucky.

[Octavius]

... "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene." [/i]

I'd just like to point out that Georgian units trained by the US military are mainly shit and that they routinely sought to steal whatever they could get their hands while deployed to Iraq.  This was brought up in a thread a few months ago, and I will find the source shortly, but it certainly does not set any kind of precedent for a broken Russian military maneuver claiming victory over some novice "US trained" units!  I hardly believe that, in such short order, we were able to train anyone to our standards with merely 100 'advisors' in one location.  Hang, as you mentioned earlier in this thread, victory in a full-blown conventional conflict with Russia would certainly lie in the hands of the US, should push come to shove.

[kamilyun]

That's not the horsepucky part. Find me a link to a single US helicopter or Aircraft shot down in Afghanistan with a Stinger Missile provided to the Mujahideen 20 years perviously. You won't. Why? No replacement batteries. Even the Chinese attempt at building a battery that will run that device failed. Fuel is stagnant also... limited lifespan weapon.

Hence; Bullpucky.

I claimed we helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan by providing support and technology (one example:  in the form of Stinger missiles) to the mujahideen.

They DID shoot down Soviet aircraft and we were worried (see article below) about them using them against us (via black market trading).

We did help make Afghanistan a terrorist haven and we were worried them using that technology against us.  All I said.  100% true.

---
"U.S. Increases Fund To Outbid Terrorists For Afghan Missiles
By TIM WEINER,

The Central Intelligence Agency's covert operations division will spend $55 million in a new effort to buy back more than 300 Stinger antiaircraft missiles it gave to guerrillas fighting the Soviet-backed Government of Afghanistan in the 1980's, Government and intelligence officials say."

edit:

U.S. Worries Over Missiles It Gave Afghan Rebels
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS,

Now that Muslim rebels have overthrown the Government of Afghanistan, American military experts said today that they were concerned that unused Stinger antiaircraft missiles supplied by the United States to the rebels could make their way to Iran or to international terrorist groups. Moreover, they said, it will be difficult for the United States to recover the weapons, at least any time soon.

[Hangtime]

  Hang, as you mentioned earlier in this thread, victory in a full-blown conventional conflict with Russia would certainly lie in the hands of the US, should push come to shove.

Yup.. we can do it.

Question is; will we?

For you panzies out there crying about the Nukes... we've fought the russians before. We did it for 50 years. Some years hot, some by proxy, a lot of years cold. They got nukes, we got nukes. They were not used because they knew, as we knew, that the first guy to launch one will, without any question of doubt, be signing his own and his family's death warrant... men, women, kids. Every single living creature more evolved than a cockroach dies because there is NO way either side can assure survival.

It was called MAD; Mutually Assured Destruction.

Such a policy takes huge balls.

And everything we have.. this world has, YOU have is because THIS nation had the balls, once; to make that stand, pay that price, and live proudly with that sword over our heads.

'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; The United States of America and it's Allies will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."

That's what kept Europe free.

OBTW Europe.... Yer welcome; puzzies. And you kids that grew up post-cold war... you ain't got the balls. Obviously. Such is our brave new world.

Frankly, the old one had a helluva lot more cache'. Every stolen kiss, every caught fish, every little victory in life had more flavor... what we have to look forward to now is like life on death row. The sentence has already been pronounced. We're just marking the time till they get around to the execution.

[Hangtime]

I claimed we helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan by providing support and technology (one example:  in the form of Stinger missiles) to the mujahideen.

They DID shoot down Soviet aircraft and we were worried (see article below) about them using them against us (via black market trading).

We did help make Afghanistan a terrorist haven and we were worried them using that technology against us.  All I said.  100% true.

---
"U.S. Increases Fund To Outbid Terrorists For Afghan Missiles
By TIM WEINER,

The Central Intelligence Agency's covert operations division will spend $55 million in a new effort to buy back more than 300 Stinger antiaircraft missiles it gave to guerrillas fighting the Soviet-backed Government of Afghanistan in the 1980's, Government and intelligence officials say."

edit:

U.S. Worries Over Missiles It Gave Afghan Rebels
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS,

Now that Muslim rebels have overthrown the Government of Afghanistan, American military experts said today that they were concerned that unused Stinger antiaircraft missiles supplied by the United States to the rebels could make their way to Iran or to international terrorist groups. Moreover, they said, it will be difficult for the United States to recover the weapons, at least any time soon.

Both those articles have got to be at least 10-15 years old. Again... find me ONE instance of a US Gunship or Aircraft dropped by a Afgan Invasion era Stinger missile.

Repeating... horsepucky.

[Tango]

Sorry to sound like a pacifist(I'm not), but Jesus Christ guys!!  Do you know what you're saying??  You REALLY want a war with Russia? 
Do realize what that will do?  Do you understand who Russia's allies are?  You really think Europe will stand behind us????
Because the minute the US gets involved, that's what it will be..  United States vs. Russia and it's allies (that have ALWAYS been eager
to take a shot at the U.S., but were too afraid or weak to do it alone)..  This will NOT be WWII type combat, gents..  They will bring the war to the U.S. 

C'mon man...  War with Russia on ANY scale is suicide for Russia AND the US, possibly the entire world..  It would start small, but
in no time it would get VERY big..  Probably even go Nuclear to one extent or another..   
You do not understand the Russian mind....  Russia has no qualms about "civilian" casualties..  Russia has a
completely different outlook on humanity..  We in the west are mostly blind to this..   

Many of us still believe the Russian Military is in disarray as it was in the 90's and earlier part of the 2000's...
However, do not fool yourselves..  Russia's economy is booming....  The US had been funding Russia's disarmament..  However, there is proof that those funds were diverted to restructuring and re-arming their military with state of the art equipment..  This is no longer a military full of outdated/broken down T-64's, T-72's, older Mig-29's, and Tu-95's..  They are getting closer and closer to the US's capabilites...  And with China's help, they will surpass the US's capabilities..  AND THEY WILL BRING THE WAR TO US....

I've done much research on Russia's current military status and it is alarming..  They were/are preparing for this..  They could care less what the rest of the world thinks..  Putin is an Emperor..  He longs for Russia's (USSR's) glory days..  He's a VERY rich man and rich men long for more power, more influence..  And to be honest, to attempt to stop him will prove to be difficult..  HIS finger is STILL on the button..

You really and truly want that?  For you?  For your family?  For your kids??

Think about what you're saying....  I realize the situation..  Georgia is an ally and a key energy conduit in the region.  I am not blind to this..
It's obvious Russia has invaded to control this pipeline..  After this, Russia will have Europe by the balls..  But what else can the U.S. do without escalating the situation?  Any U.S. military action in the region will be taken as a U.S. attack on Russia's interests and believe me, Russia will not ignore it for one second..  Russia will not have a problem going Nuclear if this escalates to serious U.S. intervention(sending in troops, air power, naval power)..  That is reality..  They would have no problem even razing part of their own backyard just to rid themselves of the U.S. intervention as well as making a statement (Frak with us, and fry)..  That would be a statement to Europe as well as the rest of the world.. 
This could be it..

Thats exactly why the west should stand up to them. If they get away with this they won't stop.

Just look at Boroda's posts. They think nobody can stop them. Pretty much the same thing Hitler thought.

[kamilyun]

Both those articles have got to be at least 10-15 years old. Again... find me ONE instance of a US Gunship or Aircraft dropped by a Afgan Invasion era Stinger missile.

Repeating... horsepucky.

Holy squealing Crap Batman...I used past tense.  No surprise that the articles are 10-15 years old.

Dude, are you short on reading comprehension...or just looking for an intardnet fight?

I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before.  In the process I said the US was worried about "blowback".  We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.

----- I did not claim that Stingers shot down US aircraft. -------

If you think I did...please post the lines and your interpretation.

From my original post, quoted by Karaya, who was quoted by you...

It's been done before...    (notice that this is PAST tense)

Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan?  (again "provided" is PAST tense)

Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there?  ("were we worried" is also PAST tense)

[Elfie]

Just look at Boroda's posts.

Does anyone actually take him seriously? You can brush aside all the Pravda stuff he spouts.....but calling other human beings vermin?

[Anodizer]

IF it came to blows with Russia, I seriously doubt the use of nukes by either side. To do so would bring the wrath of the entire world upon you.

Not so....  It would set an example..  You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia?  Doubtful..  They would most likely have a festival..  Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not.... 
Also, Russia is vast...  Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union..  But it is still huge..  A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population..  It would take an all out  Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations..  Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it)..  Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..



     

[Elfie]

I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before

Excuse me?

We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.

No we didn't. The Afghans made Afghanistan what it is.

[Hangtime]

Holy squealing Crap Batman...I used past tense.  No surprise that the articles are 10-15 years old.

Dude, are you short on reading comprehension...or just looking for an intardnet fight?

I responded to mg1942 by saying we've made terrorists before.  In the process I said the US was worried about "blowback".  We helped make Afghanistan what it is today.

----- I did not claim that Stingers shot down US aircraft. -------

If you think I did...please post the lines and your interpretation.

From my original post, quoted by Karaya, who was quoted by you...

It's been done before...    (notice that this is PAST tense)

Who provided Stinger missile systems to the precursor Taliban in Afghanistan?  (again "provided" is PAST tense)

Why were we worried about our own technology shooting down our planes when we eventually went in there?  ("were we worried" is also PAST tense)

The point of those posts, yours and his, was to warn us off from supplying the Georgians due to the risk of the weapons being used against us. Since the example given, stingers supplied to mujadeen being used against us; never materialized, the point of the posts was, and is... bullpucky.

Comprende?

[Elfie]

Not so....  It would set an example..  You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia?  Doubtful..  They would most likely have a festival..  Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not.... 
Also, Russia is vast...  Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union..  But it is still huge..  A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population..  It would take an all out  Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations..  Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it)..  Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..



     

I don't believe any country (with the possible exception of North Korea) would sanction the use of nuclear weapons by either side. Even Britain would not stand by our side if we used nuclear weapons first. I don't believe China would stand by Russia if Russia went nuclear. The whole idea of using nuclear weapons is just to repulsive to almost everyone except maybe Russia and North Korea.

[kamilyun]

The point of those posts, yours and his, was to warn us off from supplying the Georgians due to the risk of the weapons being used against us. Since the example given, stingers supplied to mujadeen being used against us; never materialized, the point of the posts was, and is... bullpucky.

Comprende?

You are never wrong, are you?  Jebus 

US military doctrine has always provided for the US engaged in 2 major wars.  We're in Afghanistan and Iraq.  That's 1.5 wars.  The Russians have caught us pants down in the "War on Terror" and we can't /won't do chit.

Gawd I hope the Georgians can make some IED's and/or the Israelis get some anti-air missiles and anti tank missiles into Georgia ASAP.

I said we can't do chit.  Let's see if I'm wrong.  I didn't say we shouldn't get involved.  If that's what you'd like me to have said...yay.

I actually hope the Georgian's drag Russia into an extended conflict after they are overrun.  Hence my statement about hoping they can make IEDs.

I've got better things to do...like look at porn or get some sleep.

<S> Intardnet warrior

[Hangtime]

Not so....  It would set an example..  You think China or any of Russia's other allies would bring it's wrath upon Russia?  Doubtful..  They would most likely have a festival..  Russian military doctrine dictates ruthlessness, mutually assured destruction or not.... 
Also, Russia is vast...  Not quite as vast as the days of the Soviet Union..  But it is still huge..  A few nukes do nothing more than eliminate a small percentage of it's population..  It would take an all out  Nuclear Assault by the U.S and if it came down to that, you can say goodbye to everyone but the most primitive tribes in the most remote locations.. Don't forget about it's allies, some of which have Nuclear capability as well (Russia would have no problem arming it's allies that don't and the world could only complain about it)..  Any military move against Russia is futile for the time being..     

You have, young padawan; defined Mutually Assured Destruction in you post. I highlighted it for you, in case your mind still does not grasp the concept.

Now, explain why you can't comprehend that it, in itself, is a deterrent against the use of those weapons by either the US or Russia.

Then, after you dream up why it won't work, you can explain to us all why it did work for 50 years.

Keep it short.. I'm getting bored.