South Osetia under attack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

i doubt you will gain any plus on this forum Boroda
but your not alone', i think you are right on this topic.

So many talk here about "attacked a  sovereign nation"
using this words and still having an own war running,
who even started as "attacking a sovereign nation", sorry but its laughable.

 

Oh, pardon my hysterical laughter. In any event, please show where Georgia has invaded a neighboring nation, plundered it, and attempted to occupy it. Also, please show where Georgia has been under international sanction for well over a decade. Follow by showing where the current president of Georgia seized power rather than being elected by the people. Finally, show where the current government of Georgia freely and publicly paid the families of homicidal terrorists for attacking other nations.

In other words, you are attempting to compare apples with horse turds, and it ain't going well for you. But please, don't let that stop you. Laughable is CERTAINLY a word I'd use to describe your position and comparison, and we all need the amusement.

[Boroda]

Several Euro's/Canadians have taken the view that the Russians have done no more to Georgia than the US did to Iraq.

You completely in conflict with your mind?!

Or you are going to tell me that Iraq targeted US citizens with MLRS!?

Sounds you still "plot ingress routes"  inside your mind...

[Dowding]

This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.

Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe?  

[FrodeMk3]

This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.

Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe?  

What people don't understand, is that each conflict has to be taken in kind. IMHO, no two wars' are started for the same reasons, or by the same players.

The European unwillingness to do anything one way or another might be a sign that they aren't ready to diversfy the bulk of their oil & gas purchases, which pretty much come from Russia at this time. In reality, they aren't ready for a confrontation with Russia economically. The Russians' have the same Damocles' sword of energy hanging over them that the Arab's had over us for a long time. Britain, Norway, and some of the other North European countries' might be able to get by on the North sea fields' for essential things, but the rest of Europe is SOL unless they get going on obtaining some alternative sources' for their energy needs.

Personally, I don't think that all the Euros' are against Georgia in this. I'm more inclined to think that they'd prefer to remain quiet, lest someone, somewhere, shuts' a pipeline valve.

[Maniac]

This Euro condemns the Russian invasion of Georgia but disagreed with the invasion of Iraq.

Kind of puts holes in your mental model maybe?  

Same as you really, Toad must be smoking some good poop or he cannot tell whos who on this BB. And btw, i think Nielsen supported your Iraq invasion.

[Fishu]

Georgia's war is more like that of the first gulf war than the second gulf war. In the second gulf war the USA kept telling us that there are WMD and terrorists in Iraq, while we insisted that there is neither - which seems to be true (albeit after the end of the "major operations" there are more terrorists than you can count and the operations are more major than the invasion itself).

Georgia however seems to have invaded SO. Although I have to wonder what does it have to do with russians, who have insisted on several occasion that such issues (on their part) are internal affairs and do not concern the outsiders (Chechnya). SO is an internal issue of Georgia, but now it's a reason to attack Georgia while the attack on Checnya wasn't a reason to blame Russia..? Russians are russians even when boiled in grease  

[Rich46yo]

The strange thing is that in their rush to accumulate options without US help Western Europe is in fine shape Militarily. They have developed, deployed, or plan to deploy an entire host of advanced military techology, even their own standoff precision weapons.

But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits. And part of what spurred on this development is a post-Bosnia Euro wish to develope the capability to act in such scenerios without US help. In fact should the Russians get really stupid I'd bet our NATO allies could bloody them good even if the Yanks dont show up to play.

And with US backing?

Im just saying lets stay real here. NATO is still the most fearsome military machine the world has ever known. What you saw in Gulf 1 was NATO flexing its strength. Now, in 2008, we are generations ahead technology wise. My guess is Putin will try and exploit Political weakness in NATO because military weakness doesnt exist.

[FrodeMk3]

The strange thing is that in their rush to accumulate option without US help Western Europe is in fine shape Militarily. They have developed, deployed, or plan to deploy an entire host of advanced military techology, even their own standoff precision weapons.

But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits. And part of what spurred on this development is a post-Bosnia Euro wish to develope the capability to act in such scenerios without US help. In fact should the Russians get really stupid I'd bet our NATO allies could bloody them good even if the Yanks dont show up to play.

And with US backing?

Im just saying lets stay real here. NATO is still the most fearsome military machine the world has ever known. What you saw in Gulf 1 was NATO flexing its strength. Now, in 2008, we are generations ahead technology wise. My guess is Putin will try and exploit Political weakness in NATO because military weakness doesnt exist.

Putin is using his energy option (See my post above) in response to the Euros'.

[Fishu]

But pretty much everything, fighters, DDs, LHDs, CVs, submarines, tanks, missiles. Our non-American NATO allies have a large qualitative edge on the Russians in exactly the kind of systems that would give them fits.

Actually, Russia does have many amazing weapon technologies and in fact in many areas more advanced than any western counterpart, including the US.

[Rich46yo]

Actually, Russia does have many amazing weapon technologies and in fact in many areas more advanced than any western counterpart, including the US.

They have some. But havnt been able to field many. Their weapons and tactics simply arent up to western standards. If you think different then please name the system and the numbers operational.

[FrodeMk3]

One thing has become clear now; The Russians' have advanced into Gori, in defiance of the cease-fire. IMHO, they are trying to move as fast as they can to take advantage of garbled diplomatic communications, and what is perceived as a lack of accurate reporting on the ground. One of the things' that marks' this conflict is the massive cyberwarfare attack that was launched on Georgian' gov't. computers and websites. I believe that this was a part of the Russian Disinformation plan, tied together with slow-moving responses from the Kremlin.

...How long is either Europe, or the U.S., going to wait before they even do something like throw the Russians' out of the G-8? Unless, of course, they are trying to hide or mask any kind of military option. In that case, I could see the relative silence on the part of Europe; A suprise attack catching the Russians' off-guard, destroying say, their Air assets' in-theatre before they could react, might be in the brewing.

[Rich46yo]

Why bother going in if you dont get a stranglehold on the Caspian oil spigot?

Why bother stopping if you can grab the entire country with the knowledge no one will intervene?

They are going to grab it all. I said that the 1st day of the fighting.

[Maniac]

About the Irregular troops that been reported looting/burning of houses etc. Could this be the Serb, Osetian and Russian volunteers doing this?

[RedTop]

...How long is either Europe, or the U.S., going to wait before they even do something like throw the Russians' out of the G-8? Unless, of course, they are trying to hide or mask any kind of military option. In that case, I could see the relative silence on the part of Europe; A suprise attack catching the Russians' off-guard, destroying say, their Air assets' in-theatre before they could react, might be in the brewing.

How long? IMHO Russia has a free and clear ticket as long as they want....Here's why I say that....

The U.S. can't get in to it to deep. We haven't the resources. Euro's can't...they haven't the resources either And they have a pipeline issue.

IMHO....Russia can march all over the place. NATO can't get involved all that much if at all. ....The region is at Russias mercy if they do....all in all...they played it perfectly.  

[FrodeMk3]

Ok. Here's some of the latest from the White House:

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer
41 minutes ago
 


WASHINGTON - President Bush put the U.S. more firmly than ever on Georgia's side in its conflict with Russia on Wednesday, sending humanitarian aid on American military planes to help the embattled ex-Soviet republic and displaying growing impatience with Moscow's aggression.

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Six days into the fighting in the tiny, impoverished country wedged between Russia and Turkey on the Black Sea, Bush said Moscow's apparent violation of a cease-fire agreement puts its aspirations for global acceptance at risk. In brief but stern remarks from the White House, the president demanded that Russia end all military activity inside its neighbor and withdraw all troops sent in recent days into Georgian territory.

Amid some fear that Russian troops may be setting up for some type of medium-term occupation of parts of Georgia or even have intentions to press on to its capital of Tbilisi, Bush promised to "rally the free world in the defense of a free Georgia."

Bush postponed Thursday's planned start of a two-week Texas vacation for a couple of days to monitor developments. He also dispatched Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Paris for talks with Europeans and then to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi "to demonstrate our solidarity with the Georgian people," and announced that a massive U.S. aid effort for devastated Georgians was already under way.

"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it," Rice said just hours before leaving for France. "Things have changed."

Russian tanks on Wednesday rumbled into the Georgian city of Gori, a hub along the country's main east-west highway, and Georgian officials said it was looted and bombed. An Associated Press reporter later saw dozens of tanks and military vehicles roaring south, deeper into Georgia. Bush also cited evidence that Russian forces have entered and taken positions in the port city of Poti and that Russia was blowing up Georgian vessels.

Rice said Russia's actions, taken together, show that it "has brutally pushed this military operation well beyond the bounds of anything that might have related to" the protection of Russian peacekeepers who have been stationed in the separatist provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia since the early 1990s.

Later in the day, Georgian officials said the Russians pulled out of the western town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.

But a U.S. intelligence official said it is believed that Russians are consolidating their positions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are loyal to Moscow.

The crisis erupted last week when Georgia tried to secure control over South Ossetia. Russia's fierce military response expanded to Abkhazia along Georgia's coast, and ended up on purely Georgian soil.

According to defense officials, it took until Wednesday afternoon for the U.S. to have what they called more robust intelligence on Russian movements around Gori. With the military's eyes and ears focused on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, intelligence-gathering was hampered through the weekend until the Pentagon authorized the repositioning of some satellites and was able to meld that data with reports from the ground, the officials said.

Bush's statement Wednesday represented his clearest — though still unspecified — threat to Moscow.

"In recent years, Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic and security structures of the 21st century," the president said. "The United States has supported those efforts. Now Russia is putting its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions."

Tough words aside, there appears to be little the U.S. can — or will — do to punish Russia. In one demonstration of the administration's sensitivity over its actions, Bush has taken just one question on the crisis, during a TV interview at the Beijing Olympics, and has never publicly discussed any specific penalty.

The administration and its allies are debating whether to expel Moscow from an exclusive club of wealthy nations and canceling an upcoming joint NATO-Russia military exercise. Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said the U.S. will be reviewing other military-to-military cooperative programs with Russia as well.

Bush also gave repeated and unqualified assurances of "America's unwavering support for Georgia's democratic government."

And he announced that U.S. military assets and personnel would be deploying into the conflict zone. Though they are only going on a humanitarian mission, Bush made a point of noting that "we will use U.S. aircraft, as well as naval forces" to distribute supplies. He warned Russia not to impede relief efforts in any way.

All this appeared designed to answer criticism that Bush has not done enough to stand by his 2005 pledge, made from the center of Tbilisi before tens of thousands of citizens, to "stand with" the people of Georgia.

Since the 2003 Rose Revolution toppled a corrupt, Moscow-friendly government and placed President Mikhail Saakashvili in office, Georgia has staked its future on leaning West. Bush has rewarded Saakashvili by holding Georgia up as a global democratic inspiration, supporting its request to join NATO, and training and overhauling its military.

But only hours before Bush's remarks Wednesday, Saakashvili called the Western response of late inadequate. "I feel that they are partly to blame," said Saakashvili, who talked with Bush by phone earlier in the day. "Not only those who commit atrocities are responsible ... but so are those who fail to react."

Bush's more pro-Georgia emphasis adds additional tension to a relationship with Russia already severely frayed by disputes over Moscow's democratic backsliding, a planned U.S. missile defense system in Eastern Europe and Western support for Kosovo's independence.

Rice signaled that Russia should not hope for a friendlier view under a new administration next year. She said both presumptive presidential candidates, Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama, have backed the Bush administration's efforts.

From Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov derided Georgia's leadership as "a special project of the United States" and said the U.S. will have to choose "either support for a virtual project, or real partnership on issues that really demand collective action." This was a reference to U.S. cooperation with Russia in the U.N. Security Council on Iran, North Korea and other global hot spots.

Despite extensive intelligence resources and deep ties to the Georgian military, the Bush administration has scrambled to determine what's happening on the ground, for instance whether Russia was honoring the cease-fire or threatening Tbilisi. Briefings on the matter keep getting scheduled, then postponed, and then canceled.

"There are confused reports and varying reports that are coming in," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "It's not the easiest thing in the world given the geography and the cutoff of information."

Still, Perino called the reports that Russia had violated Tuesday's cease-fire "credible."

___

Associated Press writers Anne Gearan, Pauline Jelinek and Lolita C. Baldor contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia