Why do people hate BnZ?

[Zazen13]

I don't hate people who bnz, i do however hate people who bnz poorly, without aggression.

I think that's it right there.

BnZing done properly is extremely aggressive. Look at it this way, you have the alt, the E, the position and usually the fastest plane. That's four great reasons to take it to the other guy very aggressively unless you're badly outnumbered locally, only then would you have to be somewhat more cautious. The best BnZ work is as aggressive as possible while still keeping the prey at arms length where he can't get an angle or anything more than an extremely fleeting overshoot shot while denying him the time to regain E/position/SA if he successfully evades. People BnZing like complete candyasses are why there's a stigma attached to it. Sure, the candyasses are not very effective and probably rarely shoot people down, but it's a matter of public perception.

[Stang]

What most people call "bnzing" would be akin to getting pocket aces in holdem and promptly folding.  They have every advantage and don't use it.  I'll never understand why.

[Zazen13]

What most people call "bnzing" would be akin to getting pocket aces in holdem and promptly folding.  They have every advantage and don't use it.  I'll never understand why.

Yup, there's only 3 factors involved...altitude, energy and position. If you have all three of those things you should be aggressively applying them for the kill. Failure to quickly follow-up on a failed pass almost guarantees the next one will also fail.

[crockett]

Something I'll add to this topic, is a lot of people call energy fighting BnZing and many people think energy fighting is only Boom & Zooms. I think of my self as a energy fighter and that doesn't mean I need to have alt on the other con to fight my fight as a E fighter. Quite simply the basis behind E fighting is controlling your energy to be in position to control the fight and set up the kill.

BnZing & stall fighting is a form of E fighting much the same as a TnB fighting can be E fighting, in short a good E fighter uses all aspects of ACM. Most people that strictly turn fight in the TnB planes never really learn how to control their energy. Typically these are the guys that you see trying to do flat turns and typically end up depending on their aircraft's natural turn ability to out turn you rather than using ACM and energy to set up the kill.

The typical TnB pilot thinks they have to out turn you to win a fight which leaves themselves very few options. In reality you don't have to out turn the other aircraft you only have to learn to turn smarter, that is what a good E fighter does.  A good E fighter uses his momentum and energy to not out turn the other aircraft, but to turn smarter and keep his air speed in the process. Doing this makes the other aircraft lose his speed and alt, therefore allowing the E fighter to take control of the fight.

[dkff49]

Not that I am extremely experiences with it, I find the dividing factor between BnZ and e-fighting to be the level of aggression.

What I call BnZ is guy who makes a pass and climbs back up until he is out of icon range only to come backat the exact same alt that the first pass was. This usually takes the BnZ'er1-3 minutes depending on how aggressive he is. These are the ones that I dislike.

What I call the "E-fighter" is the guy who makes his pass and within a few seconds makes another. He never leaves icon range and leaves his prey no chance to get into a position to evade. These guys are the ones I love to fight. This causes never ending action and leaves a challenging aspect to the fight.

This is a very basic distinguishment between them I am sure it ismore complicated than that, but for me it is not.

[Zazen13]

Not that I am extremely experiences with it, I find the dividing factor between BnZ and e-fighting to be the level of aggression.

What I call BnZ is guy who makes a pass and climbs back up until he is out of icon range only to come backat the exact same alt that the first pass was. This usually takes the BnZ'er1-3 minutes depending on how aggressive he is. These are the ones that I dislike.

BnZing is a gun pass with E and/or altitude whereby the attacker retains the energy relative to his opponent to egress with a vertical component to a point outside the effective gun range of his intended prey. That's it right there, nothing more, nothing less.

So, an aggressive BnZer, if evaded on his initial pass, could bore right back down for a followup pass before his prey could recover his position. The attacker could continue to do this until E states have equalized to the point he can no longer egress outside the effective gun range of his opponent. At that point it ceases to be BnZing...

To say BnZing is one pass followed by a run outside icon range for an eventual return is like saying fishing is dropping a baited hook into the water and coming back a week later to check for a fish to reel in...It may be a BnZ pass, but it's not actively BnZing and would cause the attacker to be so inneffective per unit time as to render him tactically insignificant...

[BnZ]

What people here are calling bnz, I call "One Pass, Haul Ass" (OPHA). Not always a bad idea, but hard to kill anyone awake doing that.

I don't hate people who bnz, i do however hate people who bnz poorly, without aggression.

Why? I hate it when people do it well and shoot me down.

[Yenny]

Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.

When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZming then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.

[Anaxogoras]

unless you're badly outnumbered locally, only then would you have to be somewhat more cautious.

That's a funny caveat, because most of the time when I have an energy advantage I am in enemey territory and outnumbered.  To me, that just goes with the territory of getting altitude in the first place: if I am not outnumbered I get far too much respect with an altitude advantage and find it hard to get kills.

[Masherbrum]

Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.

When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZming then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.

It's good that you are best thing since sliced bagels in this game.   Drex or Levi would hand you your own arse before you knew it was gone.   

If only we could be as good as you.   

[Yenny]

It's good that you are best thing since sliced bagels in this game.   Drex or Levi would hand you your own arse before you knew it was gone.   

If only we could be as good as you.   

For sure, I still got lots to learn in tnb. I'm not where I want to be with it, but I'm also not terribly bad at it. <--- still get my arse kick daily by skyrock, texture and better players so i can improve my tnb skill =)

[dkff49]

BnZing is a gun pass with E and/or altitude whereby the attacker retains the energy relative to his opponent to egress with a vertical component to a point outside the effective gun range of his intended prey. That's it right there, nothing more, nothing less.

So, an aggressive BnZer, if evaded on his initial pass, could bore right back down for a followup pass before his prey could recover his position. The attacker could continue to do this until E states have equalized to the point he can no longer egress outside the effective gun range of his opponent. At that point it ceases to be BnZing...

To say BnZing is one pass followed by a run outside icon range for an eventual return is like saying fishing is dropping a baited hook into the water and coming back a week later to check for a fish to reel in...It may be a BnZ pass, but it's not actively BnZing and would cause the attacker to be so inneffective per unit time as to render him tactically insignificant...

See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm

BTW some people call that fishing

more seriously though  the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.

just my interpretation

[Xargos]

more seriously though  the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.

 

[dedalos]

I don't think we hate it.  However, if you have been playing this game for 5 years you tend to see the same guys always do the same thing over and over and over and over.  It is boring and a waste of my $15.  I don;t think any of the complains about BnZ, vuclhing, etc has anything to do with taking a base.  But when in the middle of no where 2 51s show up and all they do is BnZ you for 10 minutes and then run it is a waste of time.  When it gets funny is that usually, if they do get you, you find out that they are vets and very active on the BBS talking about dog fighting.

But I really don't think anyone has ever come to the boards crying about BnZ or vulching knowing that a base capture attempt was going on.  Usually, that is just an excuse   

[dkff49]

In all honesty Dedalos I think you are right in your assessment that BnZing and vulching being a byproduct of base taking is an excuse. Most of the vulching during a base take is not brought to the bb's because in the end it serves a (to some) legitimate purpose.

When I referenced the Bnz'er with the base takers I was merely saying that the base takes are the only time the runners are insignificant.

But I think you are right in the fact that most of the complaints here on the bb's about the above subjects has nothing to do with base captures.