Why do people hate BnZ?

[BMathis]

I don't hate it.

I hate it when the BnZ'er loses that advantage to me; then just runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, until a fellow BnZ'er is there to do it again. Then the cycle repeats.

[abc123]

See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm

BTW some people call that fishing

more seriously though  the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.

just my interpretation

In regards to your first couple of sentences... not necessarily.  E fighting isn't always just trying to keep as much E advantage over your opponent as possible. 

True E fighting is keeping an E differential between yourself and your opponent, and then exploiting that E differential to your advantage to gain a kill shot. 

Ever hear of the term -E or negative E fighting?  Goes along with +E or positive E fighting.  -E is having less relative E then your opponent, and vice versa with +E.  Both are equally important in an E fighting style, and once you're able able to manage yourself at -E and +E situations vs. your opponent you can (continuously switching back and forth as needed) go far enough as to perfect a very effective E fighting style that is hard to overcome.

It should also be noted though, that a true E fighter/ E fighter encompasses -E, +E, and Angles fighting aspects.

hoof

[dkff49]

In regards to your first couple of sentences... not necessarily.  E fighting isn't always just trying to keep as much E advantage over your opponent as possible. 

True E fighting is keeping an E differential between yourself and your opponent, and then exploiting that E differential to your advantage to gain a kill shot. 

Ever hear of the term -E or negative E fighting?  Goes along with +E or positive E fighting.  -E is having less relative E then your opponent, and vice versa with +E.  Both are equally important in an E fighting style, and once you're able able to manage yourself at -E and +E situations vs. your opponent you can (continuously switching back and forth as needed) go far enough as to perfect a very effective E fighting style that is hard to overcome.

It should also be noted though, that a true E fighter/ E fighter encompasses -E, +E, and Angles fighting aspects.

hoof

I agree with your assessment of my first couple of sentences.

I mis-spoke what I meant by that was maintaining as much E as possible without loosing other advantages present in the fight. The wording I had earlier lead exactly to what I call BnZ, giving up all other advantages in the pursit of "E"nergy. Thanks for catching that.

Not really sure what you mean by -E fighting or how that would work, with the exception of working to cause the overshoot, but yes you need to know how to play advantages over opponent whether you have more or less E than you opponent. This is a sign of a great fighter.

[crockett]

Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.

When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZing then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.

I only watched the first film, but that is what I call the typical late night Nit hoard. I know all countries are guilty of it, but it seems like it's always the Nit's that have 80% of their players milk hoarding a single enemy base for easy kills night after night. I have nothing aginst being at another base and BnZing them if the fight is close to even or you are at a disadvantage. The problem was you guys out numbered them and "could have" given them a more respectable fight.

That kind of hoard close to the base picking off low E cons isn't vulching but it's about as close to pulling wings off flies as you can get. If you are out numbered or trying to capture the base, then by all means cap the field if you can. However that kind of milk hoarding for easy kills is exactly why the fighting sucks so much these days.

I up at capped bases all the time if the cons are low but if it's late at night and it's the Nits, I don't even bother because I know they aren't there to actually fight, they just want easy kills. I can't stand that crap.

Yenny you have very good aim and gunnery, but seems like you are always just looking for the easy way to land a bunch of kills vs fighting and earning them. I guess to each their own, nothing wrong with getting some easy kills here and there hell I take them when I can get them, but try putting yourself in situations where you have to actually fight for the kills.

As a side note, it sure as hell shows how uber that damn 190 is in this game.. No way in hell could you dive in like that in a 109 "on" the throttle and pull back out with out face planting.

[Zazen13]

See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.

BnZing is in fact one form of E fighting.

[SD67]

I can't BnZ for chit...

[Zazen13]

I don't hate it.

I hate it when the BnZ'er loses that advantage to me; then just runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, until a fellow BnZ'er is there to do it again. Then the cycle repeats.

Well, if he fought you to a Co-E state and you were in a more maneuverable plane, how could you blame him? Give him credit for fighting you to a Co-E state, that shows tenacity right there. I can see the frustration of flying a relatively slow but maneuverable plane after you work a succession of BnZ'ers to a stalemate then end up with nothing to show for it, but that's the nature of the beast. I can never fault the guy who disengages me when I have the advantage. It's what he's supposed to do if he can. It's actually more of a challenge that way. A lot of people choose to fly a faster plane just for that reason, so they can force the fight upon another person. They will have to sacrifice some maneuverability to do so, which is of course the balancing act of air combat

[abc123]

I agree with your assessment of my first couple of sentences.

I mis-spoke what I meant by that was maintaining as much E as possible without loosing other advantages present in the fight. The wording I had earlier lead exactly to what I call BnZ, giving up all other advantages in the pursit of "E"nergy. Thanks for catching that.

Not really sure what you mean by -E fighting or how that would work, with the exception of working to cause the overshoot, but yes you need to know how to play advantages over opponent whether you have more or less E than you opponent. This is a sign of a great fighter.

-E fighting encompasses using your opponents surplus of E (over you) against him.  Your right in that -E fighting entails mostly creating overshoots, but it also plays a major part in the few moves before an overshoot, or in other words, is important for positioning yourself and setting your opponent up for said overshoot.  

I could use my opponents extra E against him by 'losing' him in a turn, as his extra E would cause him to slip or lag behind me, although our relative positions at that time won't stay like that forever, and he/she will eventually be able to cut back inside my turn.  Even with that, you are given a few seconds and a few more angles to work with, which could be used to transition into a scissors of some type or a barrel roll, and like you said, hopefully create an overshoot.

I'll try to think of a few more for you if you'd like, my mind is somewhat blanking right now.



 

[Kweassa]

 Oh, people don't hate BnZ.

 People hate not getting a chance to win.

 As.. if air combat was some sort of a "fair sport".

ps) Why not bring in a referee?

 "Red team, BnZing, staying fast, extending when advantage lost ...  minus 5,000 feet altitude!"

 

[scot12b]

[Zazen13]

Oh, people don't hate BnZ.

 People hate not getting a chance to win.

 As.. if air combat was some sort of a "fair sport".

ps) Why not bring in a referee?

 "Red team, BnZing, staying fast, extending when advantage lost ...  minus 5,000 feet altitude!"

 

Yup, that's a fact...Most people don't ride the edge very well though. There's a very fine line that's difficult to maintain. They are either too cautious and fail to kill effectively in a reasonable length of time or overcommit their E and get themselves into a compromising position.

Ironically, the example someone had earlier of the guy who worked a bandit to Co-E without being able to kill him then egressed had the balance correct, he just couldn't get the kill before he was forced to withdraw. Forcing a BnZer to Co-E then making him egress is a victory for the defender whether or not he is rewarded with a kill for his efforts.

[scot12b]

[BMathis]

Well, if he fought you to a Co-E state and you were in a more maneuverable plane, how could you blame him? Give him credit for fighting you to a Co-E state, that shows tenacity right there. I can see the frustration of flying a relatively slow but maneuverable plane after you work a succession of BnZ'ers to a stalemate then end up with nothing to show for it, but that's the nature of the beast. I can never fault the guy who disengages me when I have the advantage. It's what he's supposed to do if he can. It's actually more of a challenge that way. A lot of people choose to fly a faster plane just for that reason, so they can force the fight upon another person. They will have to sacrifice some maneuverability to do so, which is of course the balancing act of air combat

Darn you Zazen! You are good sir.  I don't blame them, I just hate it. LOL

Yes, in fact that is normally the case, I get that CO-e/alt state and then he/she disengages. I do not blame them for it, I just hate it. 


I had a fight with Bruv in his spit and I was doing the BnZ'n in a pony. He did just what he was supposed to to get co alt co-e. I said, well dam I might as well just turn and fight and see what happens... Well what happend was I ended up in Davy jones locker. I gave em all I could, and we were Hangin on our props... Just the nature of the beast as you say.

<S> Zazen and Bruv of course. 

[dkff49]

-E fighting encompasses using your opponents surplus of E (over you) against him.  Your right in that -E fighting entails mostly creating overshoots, but it also plays a major part in the few moves before an overshoot, or in other words, is important for positioning yourself and setting your opponent up for said overshoot.  

I could use my opponents extra E against him by 'losing' him in a turn, as his extra E would cause him to slip or lag behind me, although our relative positions at that time won't stay like that forever, and he/she will eventually be able to cut back inside my turn.  Even with that, you are given a few seconds and a few more angles to work with, which could be used to transition into a scissors of some type or a barrel roll, and like you said, hopefully create an overshoot.

I'll try to think of a few more for you if you'd like, my mind is somewhat blanking right now.



 

makes sense I just never put that title to it.

<S>

[Zazen13]

Darn you Zazen! You are good sir.  I don't blame them, I just hate it. LOL

Yes, in fact that is normally the case, I get that CO-e/alt state and then he/she disengages. I do not blame them for it, I just hate it. 


I had a fight with Bruv in his spit and I was doing the BnZ'n in a pony. He did just what he was supposed to to get co alt co-e. I said, well dam I might as well just turn and fight and see what happens... Well what happend was I ended up in Davy jones locker. I gave em all I could, and we were Hangin on our props... Just the nature of the beast as you say.

<S> Zazen and Bruv of course. 

I hear ya. That's really the definition of being tactically surgical. Anyone who has the balance so perfect that they are engaged when they are at an advantage while always keeping an E reserve sufficient to disengage when they are not in a position of advantage are to commended, it's not as easy as it looks to maintain that balance. Unless you're one of those rare guys that can beat people of equal or greater skill with a less maneuverable plane and no other advantage, your only other viable option is to try to ride the razor blade of perfect surgical balance. I am personally not one of those people that can do that consistantly against equal or better players in more maneuverable planes. I can beat a weaker player than me like that, but not an equal or stronger one, generally. So, the smart money is on being as surgical as possible. I've been practicing flying surgically for 15+ years (the 1st 2-3 years I was a Spit/109 TnB dweeb) and I still screw up the balance on a regular basis and get wacked. I think most players would fall into that same category.