Author Topic: Second Night Reflections  (Read 2526 times)

Offline crockett

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2008, 11:46:17 PM »
It is Axis and Allied in this arena and it will never be 100% balanced unless you make it something else.

Then it will never have more than a handful of players just like the last few years.


Quote
In fact part of the lure for most is the fact that they will fight against the odds at times. My biggest question is why do you come to the only Axis vs Allied arena and lobby to make it like all the others?

I'm hoping that AvA could be turned into what it once was or something like AH used to be.. a place to find some good fights with some good sticks. Right now it's exactly what the MA is just with limited plane sets. The gang-bangs are the same as the MA, only difference is the limited plane sets. At least if I had access to some more capable aircraft I could do something about the constant gang banging.

Two nights of flying and I've yet to get a single fight with out getting ganged by 4 cons. How much closer to the MA could you get?

Example tonight, I see the Axis base is over run by Allies once again when I logged in.. So I say the heck with it I'll fly a 110 2 sectors and get some high alt cap going on. I fly 15 mins to get to the fight, find 2 lone P40's try to fight them but next thing you know it's a Spit 5 & a Huricane heading that way to set up the gang.

I separate and climb out to pick another fight.. The two P40's are alone again so I once again try to set up a fight soon as I get involved in the fight, what happens? Two more P40's jump in to make it a good ole fashioned MA style gang bang. Not much I can do once I'm committed to the fight and now it's against 4 guys. It has nothing to do with SA because I made quite sure no other cons within icon range, yet as always soon as there is a easy kill to gang everyone seems to come running.

The best part is they salute me say oh you did good in the vert with a 110.. After getting ganged by 4 cons that's the same to me as saying hey man you squirm pretty well before you die. WTG!! Nothing against the guys that did it, but that is the exact type of things that is the MA.. So trying to pretend this is anything different than the MA is a joke. The only difference is the plane set.

So you ask why I'm here trying to make it like the MA? LOL I want nothing to do with the MA, I want a place to fight some good fight with pilots that have a bit of love for the fight and have enough sportsmanship to let two guys fight it out with out jumping in for the good ole MA classic gang bang. Plane Sets don't make it like the MA, the people flying make it like the MA.. I would just like to have some aircraft capable of dealing with the constant gang bangs to at least have a chance of trying to make it a fight vs a turkey shoot.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:49:39 PM by crockett »
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Offline flatiron1

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2008, 11:53:51 PM »
maybe challenge someone to meet you at an isolated part of the map for some one on one.

Offline crockett

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 12:14:46 AM »
maybe challenge someone to meet you at an isolated part of the map for some one on one.

Na that can be done in the DA.. it's not so much about always getting a 1 on 1 fight. It's about getting random fights where the other guys actually respect the fight, it used to be that way in the AH that's long gone. I don't mind 2 on 1 or even 3 on 1, sometimes that's fun along as I think I may have a chance. I mean heck flying the Huri 1 it doesn't even get fun until it's 2 or 3 guys on your six.

It's more about players having respect for the fight if they see a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 in progress why do 2 more need to jump in every time? It's easy to deal with a few cons on your six in a Spit5 or one of the Hurricanes. Try to see how much fun it is when you are in a less capable aircraft like the 109E, especially when it's against great TnB aircraft like the Huri's or the Spit.

The problem is there is little respect for those situations, so the only alternative is to have a aircraft that capable of having a chance, other wise there just isn't much fun constantly being in that situation of having  bunch of hurricanes & spits on your six and regardless to what some may want.. people having "fun" is the only thing that will make this arena grow.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 12:18:36 AM by crockett »
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 12:32:45 AM »
If AH was really such a chivalrous place a few years back, then I must have really missed out on the golden age of online flight sims.  I flew wb for a couple years before AH came out and it was just like AH is today: same ganging, same running, etc.

I don't expect my fights to be treated with respect in the ava, not when the opposition needs to fly the Spit5 against 109E's, and that's why I bnz the Spit hoards mercilessly with the 109F-4. :devil  Despite the weak firepower, it's really not so hard to get kills on target-fixated Spits that only know how to get kills by latching onto the 6 of a bandit for an extended period of time.  What really shocks me is that the allies haven't been more effective with the Spit5, which is mostly explained by the fact that they aren't using its best strengths against the 109E.  I'm not talking about turn rate; I'm talking about speed, climbing and diving.  I'm yet to see one Spit5 pilot use these attributes effectively in this ava setup; every single one I've seen follows bandits down low instead of letting the bandits disengage for now in order to keep their energy advantage for future engagements.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 12:34:50 AM by Anaxogoras »
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Offline crockett

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 01:08:04 AM »
I don't expect my fights to be treated with respect in the ava, not when the opposition needs to fly the Spit5 against 109E's, and that's why I bnz the Spit hoards mercilessly with the 109F-4. :devil 

Yea it's unfortunate but that's the way I look at it as well, but I'd add the Hurricanes in there as well, the two most annoying aircraft to fight in the MA's are the Zeeks and Hurricanes.  :lol

I honestly don't mind fighting the 109E vs the Spit 5 in a 1 on 1 and I think the P40E vs the 109E is a great match up but there are never any 1 on 1's, it's just like the MA gang bang or nothing.




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Offline Shifty

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 06:18:57 AM »
Then it will never have more than a handful of players just like the last few years.

I'm hoping that AvA could be turned into what it once was or something like AH used to be.. a place to find some good fights with some good sticks. Right now it's exactly what the MA is just with limited plane sets. The gang-bangs are the same as the MA, only difference is the limited plane sets. At least if I had access to some more capable aircraft I could do something about the constant gang banging.

Two nights of flying and I've yet to get a single fight with out getting ganged by 4 cons. How much closer to the MA could you get?

Well I agree with you there. I wish we could bring it back to they way was way back when it was the CT. Back then we had numbers similar to what we had the past few nights. Everybody did a lot more fighting and a lot less b***hing. As far as having three or more bad guys come at you. That happens on both sides believe me.

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Offline Stampf

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 06:45:09 AM »
Well I agree with you there. I wish we could bring it back to they way was way back when it was the CT. Back then we had numbers similar to what we had the past few nights. Everybody did a lot more fighting and a lot less b***hing. As far as having three or more bad guys come at you. That happens on both sides believe me.

We will get there.  Stay positive on the bbs.  Promote the fight. Recruit those who want to fight, on cool maps, in historic plane sets, with only 2 sides.  Encourage those around you to ask before engaging, frown on behavior that is damaging, and glorify, and applaud the gameplay you want to see.  I think the current set up is close, closer than we have come to achieving something good and lasting. It is basically set up for Air to Air, but also allows an opportunity and reason for all types of players to join in.  These types of set ups draw a larger crowd than the standard ones.  Now we need to build on it, tweek, and recruit more guys who are looking to play in a more historical situation, on cool maps, and with good people.
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Offline Shifty

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 06:49:21 AM »
We will get there.  Stay positive on the bbs.  Promote the fight. Recruit those who want to fight, on cool maps, in historic plane sets, with only 2 sides.  Encourage those around you to ask before engaging, frown on behavior that is damaging, and glorify, and applaud the gameplay you want to see.  I think the current set up is close, closer than we have come to achieving something good and lasting. It is basically set up for Air to Air, but also allows an opportunity and reason for all types of players to join in.  These types of set ups draw a larger crowd than the standard ones.  Now we need to build on it, tweek, and recruit more guys who are looking to play in a more historical situation, on cool maps, and with good people.
:aok

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Offline captain1ma

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 07:27:42 AM »
and now for my 2 cents. flew AVA last night. numbers not too bad. ganging is a problem but i think thats because they dont know any better. if you see 2 planes going at it, dont just jump in, ask if the fellow needs help. he'll tell you if he's in trouble or not. 

i was in a 1V1 last night with chemdawg and some else picked me while i wasnt looking. oh well, no biggy. but it wouldve been nice if i could've smoked chemdawg (wishful thinking) rather then have to worry about a 2nd enemy.

the map is awesome but the distances are very long. im not going to try to take a base if i have to drive for 30 minutes. with the 50 troop capture, which i think is great, it will take a co-ordinated effort to take a base. all im saying is you might want to make the spawns a little closer.

otherwise so far, so good. dweebishness at a minimum so far. its been fun!

Offline sldered

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2008, 07:52:20 AM »
I am having fun with map also. But I think that there should be no side balancing at all. I see that a lot of people jumped on the Luft bandwagon for the speed and the cannons and left us allies with the ol P40. And I am not complaining at all about the 40. It is just funny that the past two nights we have been giving the Axis a pretty good fight and now we hear some calls for side balancing. I seen it on the "200" channel last night.
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Offline crockett

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2008, 08:02:00 AM »
We will get there.  Stay positive on the bbs.  Promote the fight. Recruit those who want to fight, on cool maps, in historic plane sets, with only 2 sides.  Encourage those around you to ask before engaging, frown on behavior that is damaging, and glorify, and applaud the gameplay you want to see.  I think the current set up is close, closer than we have come to achieving something good and lasting. It is basically set up for Air to Air, but also allows an opportunity and reason for all types of players to join in.  These types of set ups draw a larger crowd than the standard ones.  Now we need to build on it, tweek, and recruit more guys who are looking to play in a more historical situation, on cool maps, and with good people.

Yea I could agree with that for the most part. If there wasn't so much MA type ganging, it wouldn't be too bad. It would be nice if Axis didn't have to fly 15 mins to get to the fight just to fly the 109F or 110. The allies flying the Spit5's all the time wouldn't bug me so much if I didn't have to fight 3 or 4 of them at a time. In fact I'd prefer they were in the spit5's vs noobacaines.  :lol

I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but we really need to figure out something with the constant hoarding.
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2008, 08:16:31 AM »
Yea I could agree with that for the most part. If there wasn't so much MA type ganging, it wouldn't be too bad. It would be nice if Axis didn't have to fly 15 mins to get to the fight just to fly the 109F or 110. The allies flying the Spit5's all the time wouldn't bug me so much if I didn't have to fight 3 or 4 of them at a time. In fact I'd prefer they were in the spit5's vs noobacaines.  :lol

I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but we really need to figure out something with the constant hoarding.

Yep, some set up tweeks are needed, and we have been tweeking along.  Next weeks additions should be better yet.

Stick with us Strafing.  I hear you loud and clear about Hoarding.  In fact, when my friends on the allied side starting calling us "gangers" etc,...I knew it was time for a break.  And that's what we did.  Went MA a couple weeks, talked about AvA tactics while blowing off steam and working more small plane engagements.  What I posted above is what we now practice, (not perfect), and I again encourage all on both sides to do the same.  That is...communicate!!!

4 planes flying in icon range of eachother but not caring enough to even co ordinate are all gonna jump right on the closest red target.  4 planes fighting together, can split, with 2 or 3 flying on to the next, inevitable red target, etc...  Of course, capture attempts, missions, etc...those are different battle circumstances and guys are gonna defend/attack accordingly.  In short, the answer is within us, not in set ups, settings, or rules.
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Offline hammer

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2008, 12:22:26 PM »
As an AvA noob, I will give a few of my observations and thoughts...

First, a little history. I've popped into the AvA on many occasions through the years. Never saw any reason to stay. I invariably found a squad on one side or the other picking anybody who dared up on the other side. Came in a few times a few months ago when the "war" was going on (on allied side) and generally found a good furball going but found the plane choices / restrictions / imbalance to make it not much more than an occasional diversion... not a new home. I've recently joined JG11 and have spent a few squad nights and even a few non-squad nights in there and exactly twice since Bug's War started.

I see many threads, including this one, with lots of ideas on how to "fix" the AvA arena. What is lacking from these discussions is a definition of what needs to be fixed and an acknowledgement that what any one person or group might like to see in the AvA is not necessarily what would make the AvA attract enough players to make the arena a viable, at least during peak hours.

Now some observations. These will be from my perspective, which I consider to be one of the typical MA furballer who would really like to fly in AvA but just never seems to see the fun in it...

First, as a typical MA player who ventures into the AvA, I am interested in seeing (and participating in) fights between the historical adversaries. That part, at least, is always found!  :aok

The second thing I (the typical MA player) am going to look for is a fair fight or at least a fighting chance. This is the single biggest thing that is going to turn away a MA player who comes to the AvA looking to expand his horizons. With all other things being equal, if I came to this current setup wanting to fly axis planes, I would look at the field where the fights have been (A13?), see that only the 109E4 is available, see that I am fighting against equal or higher numbers of Spit 5's, and then I'd go back to the MA. It's not that I wouldn't fight a Spit5 with an E4, but it's not going to work all that well for the axis in a many-on-many fight. I'm not all that interested in flying 2 or 3 sectors from the base where the F4 is available so off to the MA for me. My point is this might be a good setup from a historical perspective and might work well for specific events, but the guy who has a few extra minutes for a quick sortie or two is not going to pick AvA over the MA with this type of setup. As long as that is the case, it will be difficult at best to keep a large enough player base to keep the arena fun. From my perspective (again, the MA player looking for a fight), I'd like to see an even match up available at any place the fight is. Otherwise, an imbalance has been created.

The third thing I am wanting to see when I look into the arena is the chance to find a decent fight. If either side is severely outnumbering the other, I'm probably heading to the MA. If there is a big milk-run fest going on, I'm probably heading to the MA. Not that these things can't work themselves out in the course of an evening, but my flying time is my flying time and I want to maximize fun.

Now, for me personally, these 3 things would make the AvA an attractive alternative to the MA. Bonus things might be rolling plane sets (I'm all in favor of flying 109Es and Spit Is) and maybe even some occasional non-historic match-ups (Germany vs Japan anyone?) but the 3 things above are what I look for in any arena. They are not, however, what everybody looks for in an arena. With these 3 things in place, we'd likely have a nice AvA furball setup (which I wouldn't mind) but not the full-spectrum arena I sense most people would like to see.

So how do we attract all the types of people it would take to make the AvA full-spectrum? That is a tough one. The axis side did not have an effective strategic bomber force and even though the Germans had what might have been an effective strategic bomber (the He177?), it is not modelled in the game. This automatically puts the Axis at a severe disadvantage and makes creating a "balanced" arena very difficult. You could limit allies to B-25s and Bostons, but then you're going to lose some of your buff types who might be willing to come over or who want to fly their heavies against the Luftwaffe. To my mind, this is the single biggest sticking point in making AvA an arena that appeals to anyone besides furballers and allied buffers. Let's say we get past this issue, though, and focus on the next thing I see brought up in this forum a lot - avoiding the MA horde mentality.

First, we have to acknowledge that everybody goes where the fight is. In an arena with the population of the AvA, there is usually only one fight. If one side outnumbers the other, there is a horde. If someone decides to go somewhere besides where the one fight is, they are milk-running.  If the fight is over a base, one side is going to be higher. Just about any scenario you can think of makes one side out to be the dweebs / horde / alt-monkey. The question is not really how to eliminate this behavior, but how to minimize its effect.

One idea I've always liked is making the objectives something other than capturing airfields. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, capturing territory was not normally the objective of the air forces. I've always thought a series of large towns or cities, perhaps even with multiple map rooms that have to be captured, could be placed between series of airfields. The fights would be over the cities... not the airfields. I don't know if it's even possible to do it, but having progressive rows of these strategic targets somehow tied to what airfields are available (not just capture the town = capture the field) could really make fighting over the cities something worth doing. Making them large enough that it takes bombers and not just fighters to destroy them gives the strat / buff guys something to do as well as a nice area to focus a tank battle. I rarely up anything besides fighters so I'm not really sure if those ideas would be appealling to those guys, but it seems like it would be to me!

This is probably the longest post I've made in a long time so I'm going to cut it off here. I've always thought AvA had a lot of untapped potential and would like to see it prosper. Really, though, I just want number 1 - 3 above!  :D

Regards,

Hammer

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Offline Twizzty

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2008, 12:34:47 PM »
<S> Guys...some very good fights last night. The night started for me at 8pm with even numbers at about 11-12 each and the fights were amazing, no one really gaining any ground. IMHO the allies just have to many advantages. Base placement and plane placement are the biggest, there are others, these just stand out. But I was OK with that and the fights continued to be good until about 10pm when i looked and the numbers were 18 axis and 32 allied, then it turned into...up from A13 to get horded by 2 x hurri, 2 x p40, and 2 x spit5...and that was just on me. Or, I could fly 2 sectors and get alt to B&Z the horders, because if I went to fight 1 then I was fighting all 10, no thanks. I do like the AvA setup and will continue to fly axis, but the hording has got to go, please.

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Offline Shamus

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Re: Second Night Reflections
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2008, 12:55:22 PM »
In regards to the bunches of spit5's, one word.....C202, its more than a match for the spit flight wise, the weak guns make it a problem in a furball, just cut a spit out of the herd  :lol

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