Abortion is one thing but this?

[Kaw1000]

Bottom line on this subject.Heres a 8 week old baby in the womb.


See the fingers and toes...see the eyes?? it is alive?? Does it move around? The answer is yes

Their are many people who can't have babys,instead of killing it, give the baby
up for adoption!

[Mojava]

 There are things in this world that happen without reason,  nothing is as clear as we would like it to be. I do not agree with abortions, but it's not my place to tell others what they can believe.  All I can do is educate mine and hope for the best. Being Pro Choice means, you can choose not too. 

 
 

[yanksfan]

I believe that it should be the women’s right up until Birth.  Up until that point she should be able to give it up.  I don’t consider it a child until it can survive outside a women.

With newer and newer technology rather then abortion can she give deliver it early and let the hospital start caring for it?   I am all for that.   
Of course that would be socialized healthcare,  Letting the government care for this child.

I do consider abortion wrong over all but I don’t believe I should make people  Follow what I believe is moral when it is their body.

To me, and this of course is just my opinion.

The problem with Anti abortion people is they inject their christian morals into the debate as if those without religion have no morals, this and the fact that they are also opposed (for the most part) to family planning makes their efforts self defeating as their position alienates those that don't share their faith.

There is no argument that would change my mind as to the legitimacy of ending a helpless life, abortion is wrong, it is however a product of our inability to communicate openly and fairly our views accross political and religious lines. And a failure of our leaders to in act an education system which would elevate the discussion above the level of a political debate.

[Xasthur]

Bottom line on this subject.Heres a 8 week old baby in the womb.
(Image removed from quote.)

See the fingers and toes...see the eyes?? it is alive?? Does it move around? The answer is yes

Their are many people who can't have babys,instead of killing it, give the baby
up for adoption!

That is a big ask for a rape victim, a young teen, an older woman who already has a family etc etc. It's all too easy to sit here with a noodle between our legs and say "She should have the baby, abortion is just plain wrong!". Strap the uteris on and see how that changes things.

Pregnancy is not the detached process that our male instincts would have some of us believe.

[Kaw1000]

X if your Mom had the same thoughts you have about abortion...where would you be??
In a plastic bag, thats where...wake up.

[yanksfan]

Yanksfan, such an 'open and shut' understanding of abortion leaves out so many reasonable justifications for abortion.

Abnormal pregnancies can cause the irreversible infertility of the woman and even death. Who are you to tell them that abortion is wrong? I know for certain that I would be 100% for abortion if my partner's life was at risk due to the pregnancy. She is irreplaceable... an unborn foetus is.

While we're on the subject, who are you to tell the woman who already has 3 children and fell pregnant to her husband because her contraceptive pill failed due to an illness that she must have another child even though she cannot afford the health risks of an older aged pregnancy or even the financial burden of another child?

Sure, there are a small percentage of women who should just be sterilised because they are impossibly stupid... but the vast majority of women who have abortions are women who have already had children years before and had a slip with their contraception (the pill is very easy to interfere with, for example... condoms break...etc).... then there are rape victims... 14 year old girls.... women who will face terrible health problems if they continue with the pregnancy.... deformed foetuses.... etc.

There are SO many reasons for abortion that I cannot begin to address them all here. I will say that the general attitude that you display glimpses of toward the issue reminds me very strongly of the misinformed souls who harass women outside abortion clinics in 'foetus suits' (which are completely scientifically false). These disgusting vermin prey on very troubled women with absolutely no consideration of what the individual may be going through.

My partner is a nurse at one of these clinics and the watermelon that she and her patients have to deal with on a daily basis from these vermin disgusts me.

Basically, you have no right to dictate such black and white terms to women in this situation. You have no right to force another person into a lifetime commitment because of your moral beliefs. Morals are subjective and thus so is your opinion. One subjective opinion has no greater weight than another.

- This is not a personal attack and I mean no offence to anyone. -

 

No offence taken,

i don't mean to say that there are no cases in which ending a pregnancy isn't justifiable, rape, health concerns yes, sad but true these can be justified, however, personal choice comes with personal responsibility sometimes the price is high.

Failed contraceptives are a chance you take when you engage in a physical relationship, once you have had children and decide you want no more or if you just don't want any to begin with, there are plenty of "NON-permanent" and permanent products and procedures that can be used to ensure near 100%, perhaps not 100% as nothing in life is, that conception will not occur.

Negligence on the part of a couple in this area is not a legitimate excuse for abortion. personal responsibility and self education is the key.

Education,Education,Education,Education,

once a couple conceives, the choose has been made. now they must take responsibility.

[moot]

There are things in this world that happen without reason

e.g.?

[Trell]

Bottom line on this subject.Heres a 8 week old baby in the womb.


See the fingers and toes...see the eyes?? it is alive?? Does it move around? The answer is yes

Their are many people who can't have babys,instead of killing it, give the baby
up for adoption!

Why not adopt some of the children that are not babies on in the system.  It is not like we have a shortage of children with out parrents....

[Kaw1000]

Why not adopt some of the children that are not babies on in the system.  It is not like we have a shortage of children with out parrents....

Very true.

[Xasthur]

X if your Mom had the same thoughts you have about abortion...where would you be??
In a plastic bag, thats where...wake up.

Why? I was a completely normal preganancy. I see no argument here.

There are plenty of "NON-permanent" and permanent products and procedures that can be used to ensure near 100%, perhaps not 100% as nothing in life is, that conception will not occur.

Negligence on the part of a couple in this area is not a legitimate excuse for abortion. personal responsibility and self education is the key.

I agree that carelessness is no excuse... though I do question the idea of encouraging stupid people to breed.....  

The only non-permanent contraceptive methods are various types of the pill, a sustained release hormone implant, condoms and abstinence. All of these have side-effects and only one is 99.9% effective (the sustained release implant). The contraceptive pill can be affected by antibiotics, vomiting and diarrhoea among other things. It is entirely possible for a woman who takes her pill with military precision to fall pregnant due to one of these health upsets. Should she be forced to bare a child because she ate a bad burrito? (An outside example, to be sure, but I think my point is clear). As for abstinence... well, the side-effect of that is no sex.  

As far as surgery goes, vasectomy is not as easily reversible as is commonly believed and the female alternative is even worse and far more invasive. Neither of these options should be considered lightly and are not suitable for the majority of people who have abortions.

Like I said, mate, I agree totally on the carelessness thing but abortions due to carelessness are the exception, not the rule. Mrs Arch sees plenty of girls come through theatre because they were too stupid to take the pill or just didn't bother but they are definitely a minority and are so incredibly irresponsible and stupid that they shouldn't be trusted with even bringing a child to full term, let alone raising it.

If you saw some of the patients that come through her clinic...... Well, I'll put it this way, the doctors there are doing society a service. That sounds harsh but there is no other way to put it, some people just are not fit to breed.

[Gunthr]

You are not by any chanse a chrisitan conservative are you Gunthr? - Nilsen

I think we human beings have a knack for seeing what we want to see, especially when there is a substantial payoff in convenience if you can rationalize casual abortion.  

Personally, I believe that human life begins shortly after fertilization, when the chromosomes combine and determine the unique traits of a human being.  I'm reluctant to force my opinions on anyone else, however.

I'm not attacking Fishu.  I'm pointing out that dehumanising human life and valuing some human life less than other human life is a slippery slope.   Casual abortion > murdering unwanted babies taken out alive > euthanasia > what's next? killing retards? Defectives? Cripples?  These are good questions to ask of a society.
Fishu makes my point with his own statement.

[yanksfan]

Why? I was a completely normal preganancy. I see no argument here.

I agree that carelessness is no excuse... though I do question the idea of encouraging stupid people to breed.....  

The only non-permanent contraceptive methods are various types of the pill, a sustained release hormone implant, condoms and abstinence. All of these have side-effects and only one is 99.9% effective (the sustained release implant). The contraceptive pill can be affected by antibiotics, vomiting and diarrhoea among other things. It is entirely possible for a woman who takes her pill with military precision to fall pregnant due to one of these health upsets. Should she be forced to bare a child because she ate a bad burrito? (An outside example, to be sure, but I think my point is clear). As for abstinence... well, the side-effect of that is no sex.  

As far as surgery goes, vasectomy is not as easily reversible as is commonly believed and the female alternative is even worse and far more invasive. Neither of these options should be considered lightly and are not suitable for the majority of people who have abortions.

Like I said, mate, I agree totally on the carelessness thing but abortions due to carelessness are the exception, not the rule. Mrs Arch sees plenty of girls come through theatre because they were too stupid to take the pill or just didn't bother but they are definitely a minority and are so incredibly irresponsible and stupid that they shouldn't be trusted with even bringing a child to full term, let alone raising it.

If you saw some of the patients that come through her clinic...... Well, I'll put it this way, the doctors there are doing society a service. That sounds harsh but there is no other way to put it, some people just are not fit to breed.

Point taken,

My real point here is that all the things you have mentioned, are part of what one should realize when making the "choice" as to weather to have sex for business or pleasure. Realizing that there is a risk of conception no matter what prevention you choose is all part of it.

If you happen to fall into that 1% possibility that conception occurs it's no different then that less then 1% chance your plane will crash, you decided the risk was to low to worry about. now you must take responsibility for that decision. If the plane goes down, your going with it. black and white.

we keep making excuses for what about this or what about that.

The fact is we need "Education", not only by those who may become pregnant but also by those who may decide what is allowable as far as ending a yet to be born child's life b4 it has a chance.

We also need an overall sense of "Responsibility" once someone has decided on their preferred method of birth controll and know the risks, they need to take responsibility for those decisions, once they find themselves among the 1% group.

Ending a life after you have made poor choices is wrong.

[AKIron]

To me, and this of course is just my opinion.

The problem with Anti abortion people is they inject their christian morals into the debate as if those without religion have no morals, this and the fact that they are also opposed (for the most part) to family planning makes their efforts self defeating as their position alienates those that don't share their faith.

There is no argument that would change my mind as to the legitimacy of ending a helpless life, abortion is wrong, it is however a product of our inability to communicate openly and fairly our views accross political and religious lines. And a failure of our leaders to in act an education system which would elevate the discussion above the level of a political debate.

For those who believe that baby's life should not be protected by law the matter is political and about choice. For those who believe an unborn child has a right to life it is much more than just politics.

To answer someone else's comment about not having a stake in this I say you are wrong. We are all affected by how we treat our innocent and helpless. I lost my first wife in childbirth many years ago. We both knew there was a slight risk but neither of us ever considered abortion. My youngest daughter is now 32 and has 3 beautiful children of her own. I wouldn't change it if I could.

[Elfie]

All these arguments attempt to side step the issue, A women's right to choose comes b4 conception, after that she is a caretaker of the yet unborn child. Personal concerns come to an end at the point of conception. The time to choose is in the planning of a sexual lifestyle and this is where anti abortion people drop the ball.

 Education and information, birth control concepts and products need to be available, family planning and a basic knowledge of the human body need to taught and made required in our education system. If it were then abortion would no longer be an issue.

The first choice coming before conception is a concept that is largely ignored in these threads, even though it is a very simple truth. Birth control products (such as condoms) are available in any drug store. With the advent of the 24 hour super market most of which have pharmacies these days, contraceptives are available 24/7. Yet people choose to do without, or simply don't plan ahead.

[Elfie]

but the vast majority of women who have abortions are women who have already had children years before and had a slip with their contraception

http://erlc.com/article/abortion-statistics

Fifty-two percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 33 percent of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 19 percent.

Hardly a vast majority of older women as you are implying.

Each year, 2 out of every 100 women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 48 percent of them have had at least one previous abortion.

Nearly half of all women who had an abortion last year, had already had at least one. Many of these women are using abortion as a form of birth control.

Try googling for failed abortion. 354,000 hits in .24 seconds. That's 354,000 reasons against abortion imo, can you come up with just as many for abortion?