Loss of "E"

[Granger]

Hmm..have flown all planes in the arena..at least 10 times now, and am curious about the FM.

Whats the deal with losin "E" ?
Get a 51 up to 300 mph and you cannot make 1 complete revolution (360) without stalling out. I dont mean a take all day turn, I mean really hit it hard, on verge of blackout. It just wont do it.  Should not even be close to loosin that much "E" after 360 degrees.

Its also funny how just powering up your plane and barely applying throttle upon takeoff will raise your plane up on one wheel...heh..seen the Confederate Air force ram their F4-Us on takeoff...never seen the torque raise a wheel off the ground..and the F4-U was nortorious for monster torque.

I have read many, many books on ww2 combat, in dogfights sometimes the pilots would pull back so hard on the stick, they would put their feet on the dash for extra leverage while horsing the plane around..try doin that with the current flight model, its impossible and will leave your plane fluttering and yawing side to side, even flipping inverted. As is, you must use a delicate touch, and cant pull more than 30% of the stick for very long or the plane does some really wiered stuff, flutering very un-naturally. This is much more evident from the outside view. Get up to 200 or so, and apply pressure in a 45 degree turn..watch what happens..In a normal turn/stall situation the low wing will drop, losing its lift and the plane will rotate in that direction..not so in this thing..many times it does just the opposite..very unsettling to watch as it flutters around, nose bouncing side to side, yawing side to side..wheres the spin?...corkscrewing into the ground?


Go to an airshow and see how these babys really perform. Loops, rolls, Yank and bank..and all this right after taking off just above the runway. Somehow all the power these planes have is lost with the current FM, seems more like were in piper cubs than WW2 2000 horsepower monsters.

Warbirds also suffers from this bad FM, with many of the same characteristics. Guess were going for WB2. Was expecting much more.

Before i get flamed too bad lemme say I know its a beta, I know the FM is not set in stone, I know it will be tweaked, and retweaked some more. Then tweaked again for good measure, but the initial FM is pretty scarry, real close to WB. Its wrong, but its just a game. Maybe they took out some things for the sake of "playability".
Im gonna pay my 30 bucks cuz there aint nothin else that comes close to this thing (for a game). Im just hopin one day someone will get it right.


Stall, flutter, yaw..flutter...naa..dont think so.

Granger

[fd ski]

You seem to forget that plane you see at airshows miss few things:
- external stores
- guns
- ammunition
- armor
- all kinds of other roadkill life support stuff needed at 30k but not for 0.5k flying
- survival equipment for pilot
- and probably fly with 30% of actual gas load....

So,  now take one of those,  add 4000lb to it,  and see how it loops...

 


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[Windle]

I doubt very seriously ANY P-51 pilots are yanking and banking "right off the runway", regardless of what you thought you might have seen.  Next time take a closer look and you'll see these planes taking off and climbing out straight ahead.  There are no deck level, hi-g aerobatic routines being done in actual WWII fighters that I am aware of.  Lefty Gardner & 'White Lightning' (P-38) are the closest example of that type of routine, and his show is more like a ballet - not hi-g performance aerobatics.  With the attrition rate of operational warbirds the entire community would do far more than just frown on such an act.  

Today's warbird aerobatic acts basically consist of large loops, point rolls, cuban eights, etc.  You'll never see devil-may-care deck level yank & bank antics being done by these pilots.  The planes cost way too much and aren't suitable for that type of display.  ('Tora Zekes' being the only exception I can think of).  There isn't a pilot out there that puts his feet on the panel, pulls until near blackout near the deck and lives to tell about it.  Have no doubt, every airshow performer has one eye pasted to the airspeed indicator, especially during low-level horzontal maneuvering.

Also most likely the planes raising a wheel on take off in Aces High are the 109's or Spits. Next time you see one of these up close in real life take a look at the narrowness of the landing gear.  The Corsair has a very wide track while the 109 has a VERY narrow track.  I have no doubt that firewalling the throttle in a 109 frrom a dead stop would put you on one wheel (followed quickly thereafter by a full blown ground loop).

Also realize you are no warbird pilot.  It's kind of like watching Eddie Van Halen play guitar. He makes it look so easy    Don't think because the plane you saw at an airshow didn't stall during a turn that you should be able to do the same just as effortlessly. Ask HiTech all about flying the P-51. He's gotten a mite bit closer to that experience than the average 'book reader'.  

 

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Lt. Jg. Windle
VF-17 'The Jolly Rogers' 8X
  Skychrgr@aol.com  

[eagle20]

I am not going to go on about my knowledge of ww2 planes, cause frankly, I have none.  

However, the only complaint I have right now is that it is very hard to learn how to fly in this game.  I came from AW and we all know how BAD the flight modelling was in that game.  (Need I remind everyone about the "Dogfighting B017").  I just ask that you can either:

     1.  Tweak the flight dynamics enough so
         that the novices don't stay novice
         beause the difficulties of using
         bank, rudder, and elevator all at
         the same time.

     2.  Post some kind of Help section on
         "Flying 101"  just to get the new
         guys (like me) fimiliar with these
         planes and maybe be able to get at
         least one kill during BETA

It just seems that these planes stall awefully fast.  My friend, who is a pilot, says that you bank about 30 degrees, give a little rudder in the direction of the turn to prevent the wings from dropping, and pull back a little to prevent the nose from dipping.  I just need a little extra advice just because I am new, and so are a lot of others.  Just some help is all I ask

Thanks a great bunch
gooru

[Granger]

Sims like this one, with the flight model in place take patience, and most of all practice.
There is nothing you can read, or do other than flying the thing to figure it out. At least thats how I feel about it. Print out the keyboard commands, and the . (DOT) commands to get a feel of what you can do, and how to do it while flying.

Be gentle on the stick till you get the feel for how hard you can push the machine and eventually you will be able to fly around,land and such. After this, you can read up on acm manuvers and practice doing these, starting with basic rolls and loops.

I have been flying these things in one form or another for over 15 years (anyone remember original f-15 strike eagle?)
I'm not great, but I can hold my own. I have reams of data for the different aircraft being represented and have studied both text and films of dogfighting and acm. After all this..im still a dweeb at times.kinda like rock paper scissors..enemy does this..you do that..eventually after gettin shot down millions of times you will find a counter for what the enemy does. It is one of the most challenging things you can do on your pc, and the rewards are just as great.

Wait till you get your first kill, not a dweeby kill someone when he aint lookin kill, but a good old 1 0n 1 kill with someone that seeys ya comin.  One of you will win, one will lose, its an awesome feeling when your on the winning side !!

Dont get discouraged, keep trying. If you see me online..gimme a shout, Ill help you out..given of course you are a ROOK  
If not..maybe I'll shoot ya down  

Granger

[funked]

Gooroo:  

1.  If you see me online, (handle FunkedUp) let me know if I can help you.
2.  Bug the Alpha Test (AT) guys.
3.  Warbirds has trainers who help guys in need.  I'm guessing HTC will have trainers also.
4.  Hang in there!  Once you get used to the more refined flight model you will really enjoy what it lets you do with the plane.  When you start getting kills because you forced your opponent to spin or stall, it's a nice feeling.

Some things to consider:

Trim:
- Trim allows you to adjust the controls so that you can use less stick pressure to fly a desired level, climbing, or descending flight path.  Coming from AW this is probably new to you.  
- Use the auto trim commands literally.  You can have the computer trim your aircraft level or for an angle (dive or climb angle), or for a 150mph climb speed.  Use those a lot.
- Once you get good, start using the manual trim keys to trim it yourself.

Rudder.  
- Step on the ball - I.e. if the ball in the turn indicator is on the right, use right rudder and vice versa.
- Use rudder to counteract engine torque.  This will show up on the ball as well, but remember on take off you need some right rudder.
- Use rudder to speed up a roll.  Right rudder for a right roll.
- Use rudder to aim the nose of the plane at a target to your right or left.

Stalls:
-  1-g stall is when you let speed get too low and the nose drops.
-  Accelerated stall is when you pull too many g's for your wings to maintain at a given airspeed.
-  If you stall, always neutralize the elevator and push it forward to recover.
-  Spins are just stalls with rotation.  Push the stick forward and use opposite rudder.

[Curly]

 Eagle20,  I flew for about two hours the first night iof the beta and felt like a
royal dweeb (this is where Weazel and FireFx
are invited in for a good shot <G> ).
 Of course the FM is harder. But if you flew
RR in AW you are at an even bigger disadvantage because of the HORRIBLE habits
relaxed flight models induce. Mosy of my
flyinf was in AW but in FR, and WB's which
Imho is compatible. So there is a steep
learning curve here but it's learnable.
 After about 2 hours last night I got my first two Aces High kills and they were as satisfying as my first ever kill in an online sim. Actually *more* cause it was HARD work.
 SO hang in there. Patience as was mentioned
is what you're going to need and in the bucket full.

--Curly
 

[eagle20]

I'll give it a shot.  Plus one of my friends from AW is coming over to play this game (told him AW does not compare in any way)  So maybe with a wingman it will be easier to pick a fight and live to tell about it.

Thanks guys, if you see me feel free to lend a hand.

gooru

[Rebel]

Granger.....That was my first flight sim! (F-15 Strike Eagle-Sid Meir)

I was bout 8 years old, my dad taught me how to play.  
Since then, it's all been downhill.  A steady downward spiral to this game.



------------------
-Rebel 487th Lil' Bastards

System:
PIII 450
160mb 100mhz SDRAM
Diamond Monster MX300 (sound)
Diamond Viper V770 TNT2 Ultra 32mb (video)
(controls follow)
TM F-22 Pro (stick)
TM F-16 TQS (throttle)
TM Elite Pedals (rudder)

[Downtown]

If you read any books on Curtiss aircraft development (I.E. P-40 you learn about how much difficulty they had over comming torque, and ground looping.

When the war first started more aircraft were lost to ground loops (At least U.S. AIrcraft) than to combat.

Inline engines inherently want to ground loop.

Its not as bad in radials.

Hurris had wide stances, and I think I read that the early hurris were notorious ground loopers.

And spits.

I have mostly read on the P-40 and it apparently had the worst ground handleing of any aircraft.  Ground handleing for this plane was bad up until the M or N.

I actually prefer the E losing AW planes to the E Retaining planes of WB.

I think AW needs to keep E a little better (just a smidgeon) and WB needs it toned down.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[Bad Omen]

Downtown, I hope you meant 'AH' instead of 'AW.'

Yes, AH loses E faster. Which is correct, I don't know.
Yes, WWII planes would ground loop. The trick is to gently push the throttle forward until you have enough speed to get the tail up. Then with better rudder control, you can give full throttle. Takes some practice. THe SPit is the hardest for me, I can keep the 109, P51, and La5 on the runway pretty easy.
And I can do some pretty good maneuvers in a F4u in WB when my fuel is low. Weight makes a big difference.

[funked]

"seen the Confederate Air force ram their F4-Us on takeoff...never seen the torque raise a wheel off the ground..and the F4-U was nortorious for monster torque."

Funny I was reading a book today by an F4U pilot who flew in the Solomons, and he said that it happened frequently if you increased the power too quickly.  He said you could raise a wheel even when standing still!

[Windle]

rgr that funked.  I was standing next to Buck Ridley's F4U-4 at Breckenrige TX one day while he was doing his runup.  That plane at close to max rpm with the brakes locked is one scarry bastard.  He was really fighting it to keep it from rolling, the tail was lifting off the ground, and the power of the engine was absolutely ruling the moment.  That was the first time I stood 15 feet away fromn 2000hp on a short leash.   There's no doubt in my mind what would happen if one was to gun that puppy from a low idle.  The F4U airframe is big but it was butter in the throws of that big P&W.

 

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Lt. Jg. Windle
VF-17 'The Jolly Rogers' 8X
  Skychrgr@aol.com  

[Bohica]

FUNKED:

The runways that are available here are FAR longer than any of the combat runways available during WWII.  Couple that with the fact that the airshow planes are carrying NO weapons and VERY little gas as opposed to what they carried during the war.  Add the final thing that the engines are extremely expensives and parts are difficult to come by, and I GUARANTEE that you are never seeing anywhere near the full rated power of the aircraft.  

ALSO US FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) have imposed a 250 kt speed limit below 10,000 feet, and 200 kts within the traffic pattern of an airport, so you see NOTHING at an airshow (with exception of the reno air races) that these aircraft are truly capable of in the way of power.

Airshows are NOT a good measure of what a warbird was designed to do.


------------------
Bohica
900th Jaguars

[funked]

Bohica you got the wrong guy, you're preaching to the choir.  

BTW Those FAR's get broken.  I saw (and heard, OWWW) an F-106 go supersonic once.