Hispano vs. MG151 In-Game Relative Effectiveness

[Stoney]

According to Tony Williams website found here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Cartridge Comparison:

MG-FF = .7
MG151 = .8
Hispano II/V = 1

Gun Power Comparison:

MG-FF = .6
MG151 = .9
Hispano II/V = 1/1.2 (Hispano V has a higher ROF which isn't particularly important for this discussion)

I contend that if a credible test is set up in game, William's relationships would be fairly representative of what we have in game...

[Anaxogoras]

Good link Stoney.  After reading the analysis there, we'd expect to see the lethality difference between the Hispano and MG151 change little with greater distance, e.g they should be about the same at 100 vs 1000 yards.  The different muzzle velocity shouldn't matter for overall lethality.

Small hijack: the negative evaluation of the M2 .50cal Browning was surprising.  So far as I know, it's the most lethal .50 cal weapon in the game, whereas the data you link suggests it should be one of the worst because of its minimal chemical component.

[Anaxogoras]

A fun quote:

Although successful attacks at longer ranges were possible, particularly against large, stable targets like heavy bombers (as the Luftwaffe discovered), it seems probable that the great majority of shoot-downs took place between 100 and 300m. This is often not appreciated by players of combat sims, who think that the ability to score routinely at ranges of 1,000m or more in their games reflects WW2 reality – it doesn't!

  I think AH does a good job here, for the most part, but there are lots who claim to kill routinely from 800 yards out.

Apparently, the best .50 cal round in the game should be on the Yaks:

The American Browning .50 M2 is an undistinguished performer, particularly when compared with its closest competitor, the 12.7 mm Berezin. The relatively small incendiary content in the .50 API (0.9 g instead of 2 g) gives the Soviet round a flying start, which it adds to by its usefully higher rate of fire, then finishes off in style by being lighter as well, and thereby almost twice as efficient overall...It may appear that this low score of the .50 M2 is in disagreement with the satisfactory experience the USAAF had with this weapon. The answer to this apparent contradiction is that the .50 M2 proved very effective against fighters and (not too sturdy) bombers, if installed in sufficient numbers. Six or eight guns were specified as standard armament, resulting in a destructive power total of 360 or 480, at the cost of a rather high installed weight. Most American fighters were sufficiently powerful to have a high performance despite this weight penalty. Incidentally, the mediocre efficiency score of the .50 M2 is not only an effect of the low chemical content of its projectiles. Even if only the kinetic energy were considered, the efficiency of this gun would remain inferior to that of the UBS, B-20, ShVAK or Hispano, although better than that of the MK 108 or MG-FFM. To sum up, the preferred US armament fit was effective for its purpose, but not very efficient by comparison with cannon.

[BnZ]

Good link Stoney.  After reading the analysis there, we'd expect to see the lethality difference between the Hispano and MG151 change little with greater distance, e.g they should be about the same at 100 vs 1000 yards.  The different muzzle velocity shouldn't matter for overall lethality.

Small hijack: the negative evaluation of the M2 .50cal Browning was surprising.  So far as I know, it's the most lethal .50 cal weapon in the game, whereas the data you link suggests it should be one of the worst because of its minimal chemical component.

I've always thought the theory of American .50s was "throw a hail that's bound to get the pilot" anyway.

[Bronk]

A fun quote:
 

Apparently, the best .50 cal round in the game should be on the Yaks:

It is. I'll see if i can find murdr's chart. However only having 2 cannot compare to the weight of fire on most US aircraft.

[Anaxogoras]

Ummm, I exaggerated a bit earlier...  Not one of the worst in terms of the bullet itself, but one of the worst in terms of firepower/weight.

[Bronk]

Ummm, I exaggerated a bit earlier...  Not one of the worst in terms of the bullet itself, but one of the worst in terms of firepower/weight.

You lost me... what round?

[Anaxogoras]

.50cal Browning M2.  To be more clear, Tony Williams gives a rating for "efficiency," the firepower of the weapon divided by its weight penalty to the aircraft.  It is in this respect that the .50cal Browning M2 was "mediocre."

[Bronk]

.50cal Browning M2.  To be more clear, Tony Williams gives a rating for "efficiency," the firepower of the weapon divided by its weight penalty to the aircraft.  It is in this respect that the .50cal Browning M2 was "mediocre."

Alright now that i know what we are talking about. Yup I cant argue with the mediocre. Hindsight being what it is 4 hisooka American iron wold have been better.

[Anaxogoras]

Btw, our Spitfires and Typhoon are supposed to have the Hispano Mk II, but their ROF is more like a Hispano Mk V.  This might explain the amazing lethality of their weaponry:  if they only fired 10 r/s instead of 12.5 r/s (like they do now) the difference would be dramatic.

[Anaxogoras]

Doing my own offline tests, the Hispano II we have in AH has a rof of about 11 rps, which is 10% greater than what it should be.  That doesn't seem like a lot, but when you add in extra cannons it starts to add up.

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, so this would be my final calulation (I hope):

Tony Williams site shows this:

Hispano II
Rof: 10
Gunpower: 200

Hispano V
Rof: 12.5
Gunpower: 250

so a 25% increase in rof gives a 25% increase in gunpower, that's straightforward enough.

If our Hispano cannon has a rof of 11rps, then its gunpower is 220.

The MG 151/20, at 12 rps (confirmed offline in AH), has a gunpower rating of 192.

So the Hispano in AH has ~15% more gunpower than the MG 151/20.

[Hooligan]

I put the following information up for AH guns quite a while ago (2002 I think), so only the guns included in the game at that time are included.  If anybody wants to go shoot offline at hangers or re-measure the rates of fire with stopwatches I am sure the information would benefit from some updating.

http://www.lvcm.com/jayb/ahgun102.htm

Hooligan

[Schlowy]

I need to read this stuff more in depth, but off the top, I'm not seeing any mention of the materials used or casing design, barrel lengths? riffling? No time atm.

1) What were the projectile's shell casings made of and what properties did the choices offer?
Lighter/faster or More damage? Hollow tipped? Uranium tipped bullets?
(example: I think m1a1 tanks in Iraq fire a complex shell, Uranium tippped, not just a lead cannonball.)

2) Did all cannon rounds have the same chemical substance inside? If so, which? I would assume its all salts, so ionic bonds? Theres 1001 compounds that would go boom I suppose... Or did they put that green liquid metal disolving substance from the 'Alien' movies?

As for the post above, I can't draw conclusions from it. I only see a scale, like a graph, taken from limited data, with the capability to be very deceptive. Sowwy, its about interpretation.

I have two chevy cars, both have 5 bolts per rim. Some other cars have only 4... Are the bolts the same materials? Poured or drop-forged? Purity of the metals counts? Lighter? Structural design of the rim - are the bolts closer or further from the center axel? Carbon treated all the same? Etc, etc, etc.
-----------------------------------------

I do put value on Stoney's tests vs a building, yet I acknowledge that brick/stone is different from a wing.
Stoney, I would ask to pls conduct your tests at two different ranges, might need another player to park near the building to range it. See if any of your data is linear over range pls. A factor is what were looking for.

Suppose for example: 200yards, and from 600yards.
-Same bullet count to bring down the building would mean that the muzzel velocity doesn't matter, only the explosion. Should be a mix of both I'd guess, should take more bullets at a further distance.
-If two different cannons results prove to have the same exact multiplier, say 1.5 times the amo to destroy the target at 600 yards as 200yards, this wouldn't be entirely realistic... the guns/amo are different in *many* ways.

I gota go, no time, going to get a flight in before work! Stoney pls do tests for different ranges, no rush, good topic btw, thx <salute>

*Edit: for that matter, what type of wing? metal protects the interior more than a fabric wing. Fabric wing catch fire or melt?

[Furball]

Thanks Anax.  The only aircraft carrying the Hispano Mk V in this game is the Tempest.