"Whining about getting jumped by multiple enemies"

[GrimWulf]

     Ok, for everyone that knows me I am a pretty easy going guy, I admit that I jump on the newbies that can't read the help files on the website and expect everyone to train them but other than that I consider myself a "nice" guy. All that being said, I am sick and tired of hearing or reading people whine when they get jumped by multiple-enemy-aircraft. What most of these people don't seem to comprehend is that in a real-life scenario, the only time you would see a lone aircraft is a "recon" flight or someone who has lost his element and is heading for home. I am going to post an excerpt from a training manual written by Major Thomas Buchanan McGuire Jr. He was the second highest scoring American ace during World War II, and McGuire was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously for his actions,  whose memory was preserved by the naming of McGuire Air Force Base in Burlington County, New Jersey. This will hopefully show these whiners why if they want 1v1 plane engagements, go to the DA and keep the whining out of MA about getting jumped by 2,3,4,5,6,-25 planes.
      "If the combat turns out to be fighter versus fighter, then it may be necessary to break up into two-ship elements, but no further. There is no excuse at all for a wing man to leave his element leader and the two-ship element must be regarded as the absolute minimum under any circumstances. The minimum, that is, if the combat is to be successful from our point of view. Ninety-five percent of the men who have been lost in combat have been lost while they have been alone, separated from the rest of their flight. The phrase, "He was last seen at a little distance from the rest of the formation", comes up time and time again in reports of actions in which we have suffered casualties.
     An excellent demonstration of some of the points made in this foregoing paragraphs took place in Rabaul a few months ago, when a mission there meant certain interception. Before the target was reached the lead flight had had one snafu, the third flight leader had taken over position of squadron leader, and there were two snafus from the third flight, leaving nine of the original twelve planes. Just after the B-25’s had finished a low-level bombing run and were heading for home, a force of sixty or seventy enemy fighters attacked both the bombers and the escort. Shortly after the first attack the number two man in the first flight became separated from the rest and the other flights split up into elements. Leaving the squadron leader without a wingman. One element, the leader of the second flight and his wingman saw his danger and stayed with the squadron leader, who had been singled out by the enemy and was subjected to repeated attacks. On the first attack, made from the rear, the leader of the second flight shot down one Zeke while his wingman fired a long burst which caused the second Zeke to break away. The next attack was made head-on. Again the flight leader shot down one and the second Zeke broke away. The third attack was made from 11 o’clock low. The leader of the second flight had run out ammunition by this time and as the Zeke came on the leader ducked under and to the left, allowing his wingman to fire a burst which sent the enemy plane down in flames. Two more Zekes attacked the squadron leader from behind and the flight leader made a dry run on them, causing them to pull-off in opposite directions. Then one of about five enemy aircraft in the vicinity made a ninety-degree deflection attack from the right. The flight leader peeled up at the Zeke and it half rolled away, frightened off by the empty guns.
     Had either of the two men in the second flight broken away to fight on his own, the squadron leader could not have survived this engagement. Sustained close support saved him. Don’t sacrifice yourself and the man you are supposed to protect by making a grandstand, lone-wolf play. You might be lucky, once or twice, but don’t forget that you are gambling with another man’s life as well as your own and his luck may not last him through the first minute you have left him. Because it is a temptation for the last man to strike out on his own, having no one following him, it is the general practice in this area for the strongest wingman (and by strong is experience enough to hold his own place) to fly number four position in each flight, and for the first and fourth flights to be the strongest in the squadron. Tail-end Charlie is a mighty important man, and any time you play the part, play it square with the men who are relying on you it play it just that way. It is an obligation, not a courtesy, for you to do so." -From Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area
By Major Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. 

[The Fugitive]

You know what I like to whine about.... why do people insist on comparing this GAME to real life?

Of course if more people looked at it as a game more people might avoid ganging a good fight, maybe avoid a "cheap shot" HO, avoid vulching, avoid spawn camping, in general, learn to play the game, not to "game" the game. Score isn't the most important thing in this game. It is a fighter simulation game, a game where you are suppose to "fight" players from all over the world. Pit your skills against live opponents in simulated air to air combat. I've never seen any place where it says to have the best score.

[Anaxogoras]

Most, but not all, of my whines are from the perspective of the side doing the ganging.  It's a terrible waste of resources.  No more than 2 friendlies should be required to down one enemy.  If you follow that rule you and the friendlies around you can kill far more efficiently than a country that's full of gangtards.

[GrimWulf]

This IS a game based on the REAL-LIFE performance and tactics used by these aircraft during WW2. And if you will notice these tactics, such as ganging up on 1 opponent and destroying aircraft on the ground actually work as they do in REAL-LIFE. If you would like to play a game that is not based on RL except for the names of the planes, I would suggest the Ace Combat series. In that game you can complete every mission and destroy all the enemies "lone-ranger" style. Otherwise AHII is 99 times out of 100 a numbers game. If YOU put YOURSELF in a situation where you are getting ganged by 10 enemies that is your fault. That is kind of the whole idea behind a squadron. That way you always have someone to watch your six. And again always remember that it is YOUR fault if you get hoed. They are predictable and easily avoidable. All that being said I do agree with Anaxogoras, in so much as there is no reason to have 5 people on 1 enemy. If 1 or 2 friendlies are engaged with that 1 enemy, then let them handle him and find another target or, keep watch on them so they don't get jumped. I also agree with The Fugitive that score is not everything. Pretty much if you don't worry about score and fly at your best then the score will handle itself. But again, if you are in an arena with 3 sides with 100 players each how can you expect to get a 1v1 every time you see the enemy? That's like going into a football game and the quarterback saying only 1 player from the defense can try to tackle him. It's just don't make sense. I wasn't trying to be an arse when i said take it to the Dueling Arena. That is what the "DUELING ARENA" is for: DUELING 1v1.

[BnZ]

There is no fair and there is no unfair in the MA. I admit that I am somewhat contemptuous of the number of players who seem to never want to do anything but come on your unguarded six while you are otherwise occupied, who, on any given day, will try to HO and go or just blow past a fair merge and run to help rather than take you up on a clean 1v1 while flying an equal or superior aircraft. On the other side of the coin, you have all the jokers who insist it is just sooooo terrible to respond rationally to this horde crap by flying something fast enough to choose your engagements.

But here is the really dirty little secret Grimwulf: You will almost never shoot anybody down in a "right" way, nor will I or most anybody else. No matter how you shoot them down, there is always this or that. You had a better plane, you had an E-advantage, you had numbers, the opponent was AFK or the sun was in their eyes. The only thing you can do, if you are interested in making other players happy, is die easily and die often. But, I believe the Sage once implied this game is not about making the other guy happy, it is if anything all about making him the opposite of happy. 

[crazierthanu]

This IS a game based on the REAL-LIFE performance and tactics used by these aircraft during WW2. And if you will notice these tactics, such as ganging up on 1 opponent and destroying aircraft on the ground actually work as they do in REAL-LIFE. If you would like to play a game that is not based on RL except for the names of the planes, I would suggest the Ace Combat series. In that game you can complete every mission and destroy all the enemies "lone-ranger" style. Otherwise AHII is 99 times out of 100 a numbers game. If YOU put YOURSELF in a situation where you are getting ganged by 10 enemies that is your fault. That is kind of the whole idea behind a squadron. That way you always have someone to watch your six. And again always remember that it is YOUR fault if you get hoed. They are predictable and easily avoidable. All that being said I do agree with Anaxogoras, in so much as there is no reason to have 5 people on 1 enemy. If 1 or 2 friendlies are engaged with that 1 enemy, then let them handle him and find another target or, keep watch on them so they don't get jumped. I also agree with The Fugitive that score is not everything. Pretty much if you don't worry about score and fly at your best then the score will handle itself. But again, if you are in an arena with 3 sides with 100 players each how can you expect to get a 1v1 every time you see the enemy? That's like going into a football game and the quarterback saying only 1 player from the defense can try to tackle him. It's just don't make sense. I wasn't trying to be an arse when i said take it to the Dueling Arena. That is what the "DUELING ARENA" is for: DUELING 1v1.

1.This is a game not real life, so don't compare them.
2.Your own six, your own SA, not anyone else except yourself that needs to watch it.
3.Your the one whining, about other people whining.      

[Zazen13]

I totally understand the fun of 1 vs. 1s, even as uncommon as they were in real life they are part of the game as a valuable source of "what if" contrived match-ups for amusement purposes. In AH it is a courtesy to ask first, if you can't tell for certain your buddy needs help, before disturbing a 1 vs. 1 in the MA. The only problem I have is people who expect and get earnestly pissed off when they cannot get a 1 vs. 1 in the MA. The simple fact is, if there's hundreds of people in the arena a 1 vs. 1 is going to be a rare treat not a realistic expectation.

I have to question the intelligence of anyone who honestly believes they can log into a chaotic MA with hundreds of people and  gets really upset when 1 vs. 1s do not fall into their laps. Truly, in real life, 1 vs. 1s passed the WWI era were mostly rare, unfortunate accidents which were generally the result of the untimely demise of the wingman/leader or an utter failure of navigation. Therefore, the vast majority of aircraft and tactics are predicated upon the presumption of more than 2 participants in an engagement operating in mutual support. The MA provides a reasonable, if much more loosely structured, facsimile of that environment.

[Xargos]

It requires no skill to fly with a horde.  Do not expect respect from the better sticks if that is what you depend on.  And when I say better sticks, I'm not talking about a good score.

[dkff49]

I personally get a little disappointed when a good 1vs1 gets interrupted but I would not say that I get mad and definitely not at the person who jumped in. If I do get even the slightest bit upset it is with myself for not maintaining good SA or asking the friendly to stay out (depending on circumstances).

I also don't go with the "If you want a 1vs1 then go to DA either". Yes the DA is for arranged fights (not just 1vs1's) and Yes most use it for 1vs1's. Where our opinions differ is the fact that I do not like prearranged fights. I prefer to test my abilities (luck is probably more suitable) against others who have advantage such as better plane, more alt, more speed. I like for fights to have many different elements involvedand many of these elements lose their impact in the arranged fights that take place in DA.

I do agree though that there is no reason to get mad at anyone because you can't find a 1vs1. There are ways of increasing your odds of a 1vs1 but none of these are going to be guarantees especially in the late war arenas during peak time. I do have a tendancy to laugh at those who feel the need to pile on a con with 5-6 or more friendlies already on him. This is the time I usually start to climb waiting for the next wave.

[1pLUs44]

Oh noes, Cartoon planes ganging each other.

[zuii]

MA is a multi-target, multi-threat environment, one should know that as they log in, but then again im on the road with 3 1/2 mojitos in my system right now!

Which begs the question, is posting while drunk in violation of bbs rules, if so, please forgive me.


(whats left of ) ----> zuii

[Xargos]

Which begs the question, is posting while drunk in violations of bbs rules, if so, please forgive me.

If so then everyone would be PNGed.

[Blooz]

Don't like getting jumped by multiple enemies?

Bring multiple friends!

[The Fugitive]

This IS a game based on the REAL-LIFE performance and tactics used by these aircraft during WW2. And if you will notice these tactics, such as ganging up on 1 opponent and destroying aircraft on the ground actually work as they do in REAL-LIFE. If you would like to play a game that is not based on RL except for the names of the planes, I would suggest the Ace Combat series. In that game you can complete every mission and destroy all the enemies "lone-ranger" style. Otherwise AHII is 99 times out of 100 a numbers game. If YOU put YOURSELF in a situation where you are getting ganged by 10 enemies that is your fault. That is kind of the whole idea behind a squadron. That way you always have someone to watch your six. And again always remember that it is YOUR fault if you get hoed. They are predictable and easily avoidable. All that being said I do agree with Anaxogoras, in so much as there is no reason to have 5 people on 1 enemy. If 1 or 2 friendlies are engaged with that 1 enemy, then let them handle him and find another target or, keep watch on them so they don't get jumped. I also agree with The Fugitive that score is not everything. Pretty much if you don't worry about score and fly at your best then the score will handle itself. But again, if you are in an arena with 3 sides with 100 players each how can you expect to get a 1v1 every time you see the enemy? That's like going into a football game and the quarterback saying only 1 player from the defense can try to tackle him. It's just don't make sense. I wasn't trying to be an arse when i said take it to the Dueling Arena. That is what the "DUELING ARENA" is for: DUELING 1v1.

First off "HO" to me is a derogatory term meaning some clown merges head-on AND is firering from 1k out until he passes you. Under this definition, only skill less dweebs "HO". I would rather fight 50 fights in a row and loose them all as long as I had a chance to win. 7 to 1 I don't have a chance, 2 on 1 lets go ! The point is to fight. Playing against some AI isn't any fun, fighting against a real live player is. They are unpredictable to a point, and thats the challange. The DA is just knowing more tricks, or practicing the timings of certain moves that will give you an advantage. A football game is a team sport and can not compare with this game. This game is more like chess. Its all about the player, it comes down to who thinks there way through with the least amount of mistakes. 1 on 1

There is no fair and there is no unfair in the MA. I admit that I am somewhat contemptuous of the number of players who seem to never want to do anything but come on your unguarded six while you are otherwise occupied, who, on any given day, will try to HO and go or just blow past a fair merge and run to help rather than take you up on a clean 1v1 while flying an equal or superior aircraft. On the other side of the coin, you have all the jokers who insist it is just sooooo terrible to respond rationally to this horde crap by flying something fast enough to choose your engagements.

But here is the really dirty little secret Grimwulf: You will almost never shoot anybody down in a "right" way, nor will I or most anybody else. No matter how you shoot them down, there is always this or that. You had a better plane, you had an E-advantage, you had numbers, the opponent was AFK or the sun was in their eyes. The only thing you can do, if you are interested in making other players happy, is die easily and die often. But, I believe the Sage once implied this game is not about making the other guy happy, it is if anything all about making him the opposite of happy. 

I think there is a right way, or a fair way. I'm honest enough with myself that if you beat me without HOing every pass, run to your friends, or cherry pick me while I'm busy with a couple of others, that you won. You out flew me and won. To me thats all this game is. I don't care how many bases "my country" has, I don't care about bombing (I can knock the cross off the top of the church from 15k), I don't care to be killed as I spawn in a GV. These things are easy to master, and therefor are not a challenge.

If people had a bit more....dare I say "honor" and looked at the fight as THE reason for the game I think we would have much better fights, and a better community. Its the poor game play that got the arenas split in the first place. I think we just need a better class of people flying and GVing.

As a GVer tell me what it would be like if you could spawn and be guarantied  not to get vulched? Say they had a 2 mile radius around the spawn points. The enemy wouldn't "know" where you would come out of that circle. Think of the tactics needed to kill GVs, or use the assault capabilities for taking bases. Wouldn't that challange be more fun?

Same as when fighting air to air. Wheres the challange of being one of 7 guys chasing down a lone bad guy? And from the other side, being the lone guy trying to avoid 7 is a pretty hopless situation, and not a lot of fun either. Its up to the community to fix these issues, not HTC (well I think they could fix the spawn camping issue, but they shouldn't have to).


...edited for spelling

[SkyRock]

     Ok, for everyone that knows me I am a pretty easy going guy, I admit that I jump on the newbies that can't read the help files on the website and expect everyone to train them but other than that I consider myself a "nice" guy. All that being said, I am sick and tired of hearing or reading people whine when they get jumped by multiple-enemy-aircraft. What most of these people don't seem to comprehend is that in a real-life scenario, the only time you would see a lone aircraft is a "recon" flight or someone who has lost his element and is heading for home. I am going to post an excerpt from a training manual written by Major Thomas Buchanan McGuire Jr. He was the second highest scoring American ace during World War II, and McGuire was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously for his actions,  whose memory was preserved by the naming of McGuire Air Force Base in Burlington County, New Jersey. This will hopefully show these whiners why if they want 1v1 plane engagements, go to the DA and keep the whining out of MA about getting jumped by 2,3,4,5,6,-25 planes.
      "If the combat turns out to be fighter versus fighter, then it may be necessary to break up into two-ship elements, but no further. There is no excuse at all for a wing man to leave his element leader and the two-ship element must be regarded as the absolute minimum under any circumstances. The minimum, that is, if the combat is to be successful from our point of view. Ninety-five percent of the men who have been lost in combat have been lost while they have been alone, separated from the rest of their flight. The phrase, "He was last seen at a little distance from the rest of the formation", comes up time and time again in reports of actions in which we have suffered casualties.
     An excellent demonstration of some of the points made in this foregoing paragraphs took place in Rabaul a few months ago, when a mission there meant certain interception. Before the target was reached the lead flight had had one snafu, the third flight leader had taken over position of squadron leader, and there were two snafus from the third flight, leaving nine of the original twelve planes. Just after the B-25’s had finished a low-level bombing run and were heading for home, a force of sixty or seventy enemy fighters attacked both the bombers and the escort. Shortly after the first attack the number two man in the first flight became separated from the rest and the other flights split up into elements. Leaving the squadron leader without a wingman. One element, the leader of the second flight and his wingman saw his danger and stayed with the squadron leader, who had been singled out by the enemy and was subjected to repeated attacks. On the first attack, made from the rear, the leader of the second flight shot down one Zeke while his wingman fired a long burst which caused the second Zeke to break away. The next attack was made head-on. Again the flight leader shot down one and the second Zeke broke away. The third attack was made from 11 o’clock low. The leader of the second flight had run out ammunition by this time and as the Zeke came on the leader ducked under and to the left, allowing his wingman to fire a burst which sent the enemy plane down in flames. Two more Zekes attacked the squadron leader from behind and the flight leader made a dry run on them, causing them to pull-off in opposite directions. Then one of about five enemy aircraft in the vicinity made a ninety-degree deflection attack from the right. The flight leader peeled up at the Zeke and it half rolled away, frightened off by the empty guns.
     Had either of the two men in the second flight broken away to fight on his own, the squadron leader could not have survived this engagement. Sustained close support saved him. Don’t sacrifice yourself and the man you are supposed to protect by making a grandstand, lone-wolf play. You might be lucky, once or twice, but don’t forget that you are gambling with another man’s life as well as your own and his luck may not last him through the first minute you have left him. Because it is a temptation for the last man to strike out on his own, having no one following him, it is the general practice in this area for the strongest wingman (and by strong is experience enough to hold his own place) to fly number four position in each flight, and for the first and fourth flights to be the strongest in the squadron. Tail-end Charlie is a mighty important man, and any time you play the part, play it square with the men who are relying on you it play it just that way. It is an obligation, not a courtesy, for you to do so." -From Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area
By Major Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. 

It's a game, there is no reason for the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th planes in on one con, to be there, 4 is enough.