Author Topic: Can we PLEASE get rid of bar dar below 500ft? (Read 584 times)

MrLars · « **Reply #30 on:** January 21, 2002, 02:09:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
Lars, please tell me how no bar dar below 500ft will affect the ability of players to find a fight. The only thing it does it show them NOE planes in the sector.

You have a point Tac...but a hat will cover it up

Consider this...if you're trying to make the MA more like RL like then you would have to allow spotter posts all throughout the terrain that will give location, alt, speed, direction and type of AC and update this info every few minutes via the text buffer just as it was in RL . No, getting rid of bar dar isn't going to make it more realistic, it'll make the MA even more of a dweebs paradise IMO.

Tac · « **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2002, 10:01:57 PM »

the 6 mile radius = spotters.

I aint trying to make it more realistic, I just want the bar dar to stop giving away the location of planes... no, not giving away, SCREAMING that there's con in sector when they flying at treetop level.

Picture this... you are going to make a mission to an enemy base or installation thats just behind the "front line" (read: 1 field behind the fowardmost enemy field). You need alt, so you take off from a raised field thats 3 fields behind the "front line".

The very second the mission spawns in the runway a HUGE bar dar pops up screaming whats about to happen. Certainly enough, if the "front" they are going to hit has been quiet, and the enemy sees this huge bar dar come up, they start upping like mad. Result: Mission screwed up just because 1 person on the other team was watching the almighty bar dar and either began screaming about an enemy mission or somehow he got his squad/buddies to up a defense... at virtually the same time YOUR mission is taking off.

Without bar dar below 500ft you would have the option of flying the mission from a closer field, having your bombers fly at 200ft until they are maybe 10 or 15 miles out of target.. or just the 8 miles, depending on plane type and their climb rate OR flying the hi alt missions with hi chance of getting intercepted by those that upped to defend at the same time your mission did.

Remember pre-new version when the HQ raids would come in at 25k or higher? Them lancs and b17s would take off from the other side of the map, and there was little chance of knowing where they were going or what they were hitting until they flew over the homeland, where their intentions were clear. That was the time for a frantic 109 scramble. But now that HQ raids are a waste of time and hitting fields is much more important, its practically stupid to hit a field farther than 1 field behind the front line, and even more impossible to take it and hold it. So now missions up from the homeland, the huge bar dar comes up, everyone knows where those buffs are going (to which country they gonna hit).. and the defenders have ample time to get defense up.

Tac · « **Reply #32 on:** January 21, 2002, 10:08:06 PM »

btw, if HT puts in the 4 bombers per 1 player thingy in v1.09, how do you think the MA will be? massive hordes of 25k b17's dropping eggs with little accuracy (dispersion modeled)? With escorts? And you get to see all of them spawning in their backfields thanks to bar dar.

Wouldnt it be nice to have a "fly 1 buff only" option? So that you can fly it NOE and achieve much higher bombing accuracy since you are bombing from low alt (8k or less) and have a higher chance of getting to target than the high flying ones? (getting back would be another issue, but thats the trade off). Methinks the B26, Ju88 , TBM and the ki67 would shine in these roles.

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #33 on:** January 21, 2002, 11:15:49 PM »

Tac,

I am sure deep undetected strikes would cause a lot of activity on these message boards when people started complaining about it

Six mile spotters will not give time to counter the attack, so would be useless defensively. I just can't see people in MA wanting to patrol the empty sectors to cover the hole in Dar Bar detection.

For realism, the NOE mission deep behind the lines would be a suicide mission. The only penalty for suicide missions in MA is a quick return to a friendly field. Now if you upped the anty... say 200 perk points for a DarBar stelth sheild, it could get interesting

Gunner

janjan · « **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2002, 12:56:38 AM »

Why are jabo/bombing missions ruined if there is opposition.
You guys make missions just to milkrun?

mipoikel · « **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2002, 02:07:36 AM »

My suggestion:

1. If NOE planes 6 or less, dar would not appear. That would give us (rooks) also chances.

2. A country with less numbers could have this advantage. Ofcourse not if numbers are close even. For example 1:3 would give this dar-advantage.

What????? Am I really pissed of being outnumbered and gangbanged. YES!!!!!!!:mad:

Tac · « **Reply #36 on:** January 22, 2002, 08:58:18 AM »

Gunner, those 6 miles are very important. If you want to NOE right up to the base, the ack will kill you. Most buffs will have to begin their climb from 5 to 10 miles out, fighters may only need 4 to 6 miles to get to at least 6 or 7k, depending on their climb rate.

This means that for those 4 to 6 miles or 5 to 10 miles you will have buffs and fighters climbing at around 150mph to get their alt.

AmRaaM · « **Reply #37 on:** January 22, 2002, 10:11:01 PM »

Best to meet 1/2 on this issue, keep bar-dar and dot dar but make it so that the radar net can be destoyed or degraded by attacking radar facilites such as forward radar dishes and command and control bunkers ect. Not just by sending 2 lances over the HQ and one lance to wipe out 3/4 the city like it is now.

xHaMmeRx · « **Reply #38 on:** January 22, 2002, 10:49:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
...If you have an incoming NOE raid, they will be spotted in dot dar 6 miles out. And any kind of raid on a field will require planes to get at least 7k above the field's alt to be able to attack it... 6 miles + climb time = more than enough time for any moron to see a big blob of red 6 miles away from their field and up their spits, n1ks and la7's and flaks...

At 240 mph, 6 miles is covered in 1.5 minutes. At 360, 45 seconds. Time to react to the raid? I doubt it.

Not that I don't think something could (and maybe even should) be done. To figure it out, though, we need to think about what we should be simulating, how to satisfy most (if not all) players, and keep the game playable.

To my mind, bar dar represents the type of information I might get from a ground report... there is a large/medium/small group of planes flying within a 625 square mile area (one sector in AH). Actually, I would also expect some type of altitude information, too. I would only expect this information to be available to me over friendly territory, defined as my original country area, not the areas that I may have occupied. This would represent the loyal citizens and civil defense system of a country reporting what they see when they see it.

In occupied territories, I would only expect this type of information when planes overflew the front lines (defined maybe as 1/2 way between the opposing airfields?) or near an occupied base, city, depot, etc. This would represent reports from troops, but not from the hostile indiginous (sp?) population which would rather see the invaders gone.

In enemy controlled territory, I would not expect to get any bar dar information at all. There is no source available.

So, how would this effect NOE? It would certainly allow them into territory originally belonging to your side. It would also allow them over the ocean. Sure, as soon as they overflew enemy territory they would be spotted, but is that really unrealistic? It would, IMHO, allow realistic use of NOE strikes as opposed to having some rear base or HQ suddenly come under attack with no warning.

Possibly, you would need to show bar dar (maybe another color?) over enemy territory to indicate the type of information you might have on high altitude raids developing. Maybe having a yellow bar appear to represent planes over 10 or 15k. All sides had the ability to detect the high altitude bomber streams in plenty of time to intercept.

Dot dar? Well, I like dot dar. I prefer the quick fight to a long patrol looking for a bogie. I prefer to look for 1 vs 1 or so if I can find one. Dot dar helps do that. Without dot dar, everyone would fly in packs (even more than now!

) for fear of running into an enemy pack. Taking it out by destroying the dar at the base makes sense. I think destroying HQ should render bar dar useless (representing the destruction of the communications center which would collect, analyze, and distribute information based on reports) but leave dot dar intact since it is tied to a specific base.

Well, enough typing. Guess thats my 22 cents worth!

HaMmeR
www.netAces.org

Tac · « **Reply #39 on:** January 23, 2002, 10:05:27 AM »

"At 240 mph, 6 miles is covered in 1.5 minutes. At 360, 45 seconds. Time to react to the raid? I doubt it. "

Show me a non-jet bomber or fighter loaded with ordenance that can climb from 200 ft to 7k AT 240mph or 360mph in a mere 6 miles.

NOE planes would fly to about 6 or 8 miles from target and climb hard at 140 or 150 mph until they reach a minimum safe alt from ack (7k?), then level off again and pick up speed. Id say you'd have an easy 4 to 5 minutes of climb before you get to alt.

And since the moment the planes leave 500ft the bar dar pops up, it would still be a dead giveaway that a NOE raid is about to hit that field. Only difference is that the defenders wont have such a HUGE advantage over the attackers (since they didnt see the huge bar dar coming in at them from the field the raid took off).

xHaMmeRx · « **Reply #40 on:** January 23, 2002, 01:05:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
Show me a non-jet bomber or fighter loaded with ordenance that can climb from 200 ft to 7k AT 240mph or 360mph in a mere 6 miles.

NOE planes would fly to about 6 or 8 miles from target and climb hard at 140 or 150 mph until they reach a minimum safe alt from ack (7k?), then level off again and pick up speed. Id say you'd have an easy 4 to 5 minutes of climb before you get to alt.

Tac, why would I take bombers in when I can destroy an airfield's city or even HQ with P-47's? No need to climb as they can strafe and rocket the ack more effectively down low and then climb up to drop some bombs on the buildings.

If I did take bombers, why on earth would I feel I have to climb 7k before I drop? I've never felt the need to avoid ack when in a B-26 or B-17. I might take some hits, but rarely enough to disable me before I drop. 1 - 2k AGL is fine, especially with a multi-ship raid.

I personally think the ability to get to any target on the map undetected just because I fly low is (I hate to use this word) unrealistic. While we have many game concessions, I don't think NOE invisibility all over the map should be one of them. NOE raids happened, yes. Mostly in the area of the front lines and mostly in areas which were occupied. These would work in the scenario I described. You are advocating the ability to get to Berlin, Schweinfurt, or Munich by flying low.

Like I said above, I agree that some change would be a good thing, but a good thing can be taken too far. Balance is the key.

As always, of course, just my humble opinion!

HaMmeR
www.netAces.org

Tac · « **Reply #41 on:** January 24, 2002, 05:07:16 PM »

A heavy jug going below 500ft is dead if it meets ack at that alt. If you pull up to get alt you will be visible in bar dar, not to mention that even if you are below 500ft, the DOT dar will show you if you are 6 miles away from the field.

Plus you'd have to make damn sure that your jugs are able to wipe out all fh's, vh and all ack in 1 or 2 passes and suffer fewer than 1 or 2 planes in your raid getting shot down. Because if you dont, the field will up defense, flaks, tbms, n1ks, spits and la7's. Plus you have to level town as well.

Not to mention that taking a field behind enemy lines is useless if you completely pork it.

ljkdern · « **Reply #42 on:** January 24, 2002, 05:23:34 PM »

Im for getting rid of bar dar alltogether. Just use dot dar, I dont think anyone would have any problem finding the furballs with dot dar. I never know gv's are at my field till I go over there in a plane and see them anyway(or theyre shooting at me). As things stand now there is ABSOLUTELY no element of surprise in AH. and I think its a shame. It would be more exciting.

pbirmingham · « **Reply #43 on:** January 24, 2002, 05:48:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac

Plus you'd have to make damn sure that your jugs are able to wipe out all fh's, vh and all ack in 1 or 2 passes and suffer fewer than 1 or 2 planes in your raid getting shot down. Because if you dont, the field will up defense, flaks, tbms, n1ks, spits and la7's. Plus you have to level town as well.

Too complicated. Bring in six Jugs with rockets and bombs. Kill town acks and town. Make sure you've timed things so the goon arrives not long after the town buildings are down.

You'll show up on radar one minute out , but it'll take at least a minute for defenders to show up at the town, assuming they launch as soon as you pop up on the scope. Most likely, I'd estimate you've got five minutes, probably more unless lots of people auger IMMEDIATELY and launch.

The only real danger is the ack, I think.

pbirmingham · « **Reply #44 on:** January 24, 2002, 05:54:04 PM »

duh. Double post.