MISSION oriented format - PLEASE !!!...

[Hedgehog]

Hi Guys,

   Wow, v1.02 is really bringing AH to "greatness". But, in discussions that I've had with squaddies, it's not there "yet".

   HT / Pyro, any of the AH crew that's out there, please hear me out. Can you guys please provide an historical format re: countries flying their correct planeset, and a mission-oriented format?

   Look, many of the people willing to pay for AH do so because they want more than a dumb arcade game. But in many cases, that's how AH is flown. People sometimes intentionally auger just because they don't want to RTB., etc. etc.

   There are some efforts going on like the GMT Tour of Duty (http://www.wardogs.org/ah/) to give the "true hardcore" crowd a chance to further eliminate some of the arcade aspects of the present AH setup.

   But, HT and Pyro why not simply take AH that one step higher and introduce this yourself??

   Why not write a program that will create missions for AH, as a front-end? Think of this as being similar to the mission generator in Falcon 4. This mission generator would decide on a general strategy to "win the war" for each side, and plan missions accordingly. The missions need not be flown, of course, *BUT* if these missions are flown, they will greatly help organize the people flying AH. It would also take out the large time commitment that mission planning requires. People can just log in and choose a mission.

   In addition, make each mission fairly long, so that people would be encouraged to survive. Don't limit people to one life, but make it hard for someone who dies to simply rejoin the mission. This is easily accomplished if the missions, say, take an hour to fly - you won't be able to catch up to a mission that's 1/2 way through. Also, credit each person AND the success of the mission if some (large) percentage of the group can RTB - to discourage auto-augering.

   So, here's my dream vision of the near-future in AH:

   I don't log into the arena directly - I log into a "mission planner". This planner is a list of missions that has been created by a "front-end" program that analyzes the present situation in the AH arena. Let's say it calls for a mission of 8 strike aircraft to hit some strategic site, and an escort of 8 fighters for it. The mission list also shows how many people have "chosen" to fly that mission.

   I can then "chose" a mission and I would enter a chat room, which would also give me a briefing of the mission. In the chat room would be others waiting to fly. At this point, you could discuss the mission, get wing assignments, target assignments, etc.

   Eventually, your time of departure occurs and you fly the mission as a *large and organized group* - that's the key! Personally, I've had MUCH more fun flying AH that way than any other way.

   You go fly the mission, and if it's a success, you get a TON of points. That might motivate more people to fly AH this way, and provide a *top-notch* experience for the people looking for something better than just the "fly and die mission" that can become old and boring in AH.

   People could of course continue to fly "lone wolf", but the mission format would most likely become the preferred way to fly because greater numbers usually means survival, there could be a "score" incentive, or just because the mission format will be a much more immersive experience.

   OK - I've babbled long enough - COMMENTS PLEASE - especially from the AH master programmers, etc.

=Thanks for listening,

=Hedgehog
=Screamin' Blue Messiahs http://sbm.virtualworld.net

[Hedgehog]

Hi Again,

   Oh - one more thing - as I read the WWII Online web site and bboard, this mission-oriented format seems to be what that sim has in store. I'm very excited about having that capability in an arena sim!

   But, hey, why can't Ace's High beat WWII Online to the punch? You already have the planes, the ground vehicles, etc. etc. Why not write the "mission planner" program and hook it onto AH as a front-end, and come out with what WWII Online plans to offer, but a good bit earlier?

= BTW - *ALL THE BEST of luck with AH* !

=Hedgehog

[-rkat-]

Hedgehog,

I agree, but you would also have to make provision for the people who may not be in it for the "strategic" thing. I'm sure there are some guys who simply want to get in and furball. As long as an allowance for these guys was made - great idea!!!

Cheers,

-rkat-

[Hedgehog]

Hey Rkat,

   Sure, there would be no restrictions on the choice of "furballing". In fact, people could just log on as usual. The automated "mission planner" would just be an optional "front-end" that would automatically organize flights for those who are looking for that.

   I have a much greater AH experience when I can be part of a 10+ plane flight - especially when there is a clear mission. However, this can be rare because only certain people make the time to organize such flights. I would imagine that if the computer would organize this for us (with a debrief screen, a recon screen, etc. - like in Falcon 4), more people would utilize such an option.

=Hedgehog
=Screamin' Blue Messiahs

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Excellent idea HH!

[Wraith]

Hedge, Air Warrior has a feature that allows players/squadrons to be mission oriented!

They have a BRIEFING room where the mission planner (a player) can see the map, set up waypoints, assign flights/planes/ordenance/altitude to the players taking part in the sortie.

Many times, the disorganized play like the one we see in AH now, would result in nothing but dead pilots, wasted time and the knowledge that a target or airfield would only be taken when the organized squads came online OR when for some magical reason, all the players in one team had somehow ended up flying over the same field/target.

The Mission Briefing Room would allow a group of 6 pilots or more to effectively dish out damage, take a field or do whatever they wanted because it was PLANNED, everyone knew their role and their mission. Something the Special Event Arena does today in AH, which is why its so fun to go into the SEA  

The cool thing was, that when you were in FLIGHT, the computer would tell you where your WPNT was and what the alt you had to be in was to be when you got to that waypoint.. it allowed for HIGH escort fighters, low stealth bombers, etc.. all coordinated for one mission!

Hope AH has something like this in the future, especially with this new HUGE map.

[Dead Man Flying]

A swell idea so long as it's not forced onto the players.  I, for one, happen to be one of the "arcadish" augerfiends.  Sorry, but spending 30 minutes returning to base on fumes may appeal to some, but that's not where my heart is.  Been there, done that 4+ years ago in Air Warrior.  The joy for me is in the fight now (not the kill, but the fight).  If augering for a quick replane means I can get back into it that much more quickly, that's what I'll do.

That said, an optional mission structure is nice.  Wraith mentioned the AW3 briefing rooms; those are very nice, but they aren't "automated," per se.  Rather, someone designs an op, creates waypoints, then uploads the mission plan into the briefing room for all present to study.

AW3 *does* allow for players to select a random mission assignment (usually of the format: "Fly out of XYZ base at a heading of 215 and intercept all incoming enemies" or "Fly out of XYZ base at a heading of 310 and destroy all ammo bunkers at XYZXYZ base.").  However, there are no incentives to participate in such random missions, and the missions do not encourage team cooperation.  When I played, most folks didn't even know they existed.

-- Todd/DMF

[Stiglr]

(just a shout from the peanut gallery)

Eventually, somebody is going to have to have the balls to implement strategy as an integral part of the game, and make the players subscribe to it.

Face it, if the sim is great, and can lay claim to being the "best" or "most realistic" flight sim, people *will* "put up with" structure to fly it. Especially at AH's reduced price structure. If pilots can learn the flight model quirks, the radios, and the countries, and the 'strat', they can learn how missions are run.

I often make this argument on the WB board: what good is it to thump your chest about how great your modeling and gunnery and (fill in the feature) is, if you tolerate arcade flying by the pilots as the *norm*?????

People fly arcade/dweeb style because they're lazy and because they can. If they really have to have arcade gaming there are several other games to cater to them. If they really value the accuracy that is the hallmark of this sim (and of WB, too), they will adjust and be willing to take on some of the other trappings of WWII aerial combat: flying as a team, with an objective, to some greater purpose than flying in circles with their stick in their gut.

Y'know Pyro, if AH were the one sim that had the guts to do this, I'd rethink my loyalties in a heartbeat....really.

[Dead Man Flying]

 

Originally posted by Stiglr:
Y'know Pyro, if AH were the one sim that had the guts to do this, I'd rethink my loyalties in a heartbeat....really.

Me too... right about the time I cancel my subscription.  The goal of this sim should be to increase choice, not reduce it.  A structured, regular mission-oriented arena suits me just fine, and I wholeheartedly encourage HTC to implement something along those lines.  I would not, however, prefer that at the expense of the current setup.  I see no reason why the two could not coexist.

-- Todd/DMF


[This message has been edited by Dead Man Flying (edited 04-12-2000).]

[Stiglr]

I do, DMF: dweebish arcade flying reduces the quality of the sim for *everyone*.

Nice as it is for the players to have unlimited choice, dweebery almost ALWAYS results from it. It's been proven in AW, WB, FA, and AH. You have guys constantly flying identical planes in duels, flying Kamikaze style, "gaming the game" to discover ridiculous ways to further their agenda, not caring about saving their virtual lives, etc. Then they whine about anything that brings a virtual consequence to their choices. The end result is, the game is "realistic" only for a few flight model points. Everything else is dweebish: ack-starring, serial attack dweebing, dogfighting buffs, all the stupid stuff that really ruins your immersion and suspension of disbelief.

Fact is, the answer lies in a mixture of player choice and game formatting. Ex: You choose your plane, be prepared to be sent on a mission that that plane was used for. You choose your airfield, be prepared to be subject to conditions at that airfield (fuel, ammo, plane availability). Choose a side, stick with it when things are good and when the tide turns against you.

As I've said before, there are plenty of choices already for arcade flying. I fail to see why an arcade flyer, who cares nothing about historic mission profiles, etc, even cares about the detail and realism that go into FMs, gunnery models, etc. If mindless fun is your only bailiwick, fly Fighter Ace. Or Air Warrior. Somewhere, some time, somebody has to get the 'nads to make a stand for the SIM, at the expense of the game.

There is MUCH room for fun in this kind of setup; it is not mutually exclusive. And even some of the folks who think they are arcade dweebs will discover that taking more steps to recreate the environment of WWII air combat is far, far, FAR superior to mindless furballing at 300 feet.

P.S.: I'm not saying strip all of the furball arcade flying out of the sim. Use it for the dumbed down, not-full-realism arenas.

[Dead Man Flying]

Methinks you have an overly broad definition of "sim."  To many such as myself, a simulation accurately models planes, flight models, gunnery, etc.  This is an air combat simulation with WW2 airplanes; it is NOT a WW2 simulation, which is apparently what you want it to be.  Pyro himself last night called Aces High "a game" while responding to questions.

Now, it's silly to suggest that those who enjoy furballs likewise enjoy dumbed down flight models.  The furballs are made more fun *because* of the more realistic, difficult flight models.  I also have problems with your characterization of such players as "arcaders" or "arcade"-minded.  The level of ACM skill and SA displayed by some of these "arcaders" is astonishing, and they would succeed very well flying "historically" but choose not to.  Why?  Because it's not fun.  Period.  In fact, it's pretty damn boring.

Let's put this in perspective.  My grandfather was an upper turret gunner in a TBF Avenger in WW2.  I've also had contacts with a number of P-47 pilots from WW2.  Almost all sorties met with absolutely no air to air resistance.  None.  Zippo.  Fights were hard to come by.  You flew here, you flew there, you attacked a ship or a trainyard, then you flew home.  Attacking ground targets was an experience unto itself -- a real nailbiting ordeal -- but it wasn't air combat.

I assume in this ultrarealistic sim that you'll also model Allied advantages?  So we can expect 10 to 1 odds favoring Allied planes in Europe.  We should also model different fuel quality between Allied planes and German planes.

Okay, now I'm going overboard.  There are some important issues here.  First, there's no reason to "dumb down" the main arena as is.  Leave it, it's fine.  It works.  Second, I think adding a structured, mission-oriented second arena is a great idea as well.  If flying to live is your thing, do it there OR in the main arena.  It's your choice.  Third, what exactly WOULD the consequences of dying be in this structured arena?  Banned until next tour?  Grounded for the night?  That won't sell well.  If it means demotion, then it's not a disincentive to many of us.  I personally have zero desire to advance in a virtual ranking system, and in fact I prefer as few command responsibilities as possible.

Oh, and I think we're both in agreement that those who "game the game" ruin the experience for everyone, though I'm not clear how you expect to prevent this with a mission-oriented structure.  Also, keep in mind that augering for a replane is NOT "gaming the game."  That dubious distinction goes with behavior that utilizes known bugs or design flaws to an advantage.  Augering for replanes has been around for as long as pay for play online flight sims have been around, first out of necessity and later out of habit.

-- Todd/DMF

[Hedgehog]

Heh, these discussions always seem to polarize. I don't see the need to polarize.

Look - right now, squads make up missions in the main arena - and it's fun. So, what I'm saying is that for those that choose to do so, there would be a computer-generated mission list, that would help organize this task, feed into the general strategy of the arena for your country, and basically save busy people some time.

This "mission creator" could work in the Main arena as well as an Historical arena.

This would not preclude lone wolf missions, but it might make them tougher.

I see this as a great upgrade to the present system - that will simply add value. If you don't wish to use it, then you wouldn't have to do so.

   I know that I would use it for almost all my AH flights.

=All the best!

=Hedgehog
=Screamin' Blue Messiahs