Author Topic: Civil Rights and Liberties  (Read 1348 times)

Offline humble

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2008, 03:26:16 PM »
You dont have a right to vote. Its not in there.

Absolutely 100% a false statement. The "right" is specifically guaranteed in Article 4. It's defined however by each state within the limits imposed by various constitutional amendments. What we have is a lot of 20W bulbs (this not aimed at you chalenge but your "sources") who write that we don't explicitly have a "right to vote" without a regard for the structure of our government. Each state has the right and responsibility to define suffrage, this is a fundamental "states right". We can view this in a similar context to your right to get married or to declare bankruptcy. The underlying right exists but is variable by state according to local doctrine. Not all your rights are federal in nature, this is lost much of its significance in the 21st century, but in 1796 most "Americans" were much more concerned about states rights then federal one's...so a portion of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was viewed as to important to be left to the federal government.

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2008, 04:01:15 PM »
Yes, we have no business complaining about creeping infringements UNTIL we are just as bad as Soviet Russia.

As long as we are even slightly better, we need to STFU!

The thing is US citizens are protected from the Police, military, and Government, in ways unheard of in most of the world. Even in Europe the Police have far less restrictions on them.

But maybe youv never been in places where people are not. If you haven't then you have no frame of reference.

You vote means nothing because you have removed yourself from having impact on the system. You go to work, come home, whine on the computer, and thats it. The entire idea of America was for citizen Politicians, citizen soldiers, a citizens militia....ect All that changed when Politics became a profession and big Political machines became the norm. If there is a monster in Washington then we are the ones who created it, if only by our apathy.

I mean how many of you have ever fought for any "right"? Most gun owners dont even belong to the NRA.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2008, 07:23:56 PM »
Absolutely 100% a false statement. The "right" is specifically guaranteed in Article 4. It's defined however by each state within the limits imposed by various constitutional amendments. What we have is a lot of 20W bulbs (this not aimed at you chalenge but your "sources") who write that we don't explicitly have a "right to vote" without a regard for the structure of our government. Each state has the right and responsibility to define suffrage, this is a fundamental "states right". We can view this in a similar context to your right to get married or to declare bankruptcy. The underlying right exists but is variable by state according to local doctrine. Not all your rights are federal in nature, this is lost much of its significance in the 21st century, but in 1796 most "Americans" were much more concerned about states rights then federal one's...so a portion of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was viewed as to important to be left to the federal government.


Quote
Article IV
Section 1. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.


Section 2. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.


A person charged in any state with treason, felony, or other crime, who shall flee from justice, and be found in another state, shall on demand of the executive authority of the state from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the state having jurisdiction of the crime.


No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due.


Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.


The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.


Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.


Sorry but I dont see it anywhere in there. I think your making it up.
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Offline humble

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2008, 07:36:46 PM »
definition of a "Republican form of Government" from Blacks Law Dictionary page 1303...

A government in the republican form; a government of the people; a government by representatives chosen by the people.  In re Duncan, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219.


Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2008, 07:56:50 PM »
Humble you know as well as I do that the original framers of the Constitution never intended for there to be a political race for the office of the President as we have today. The framers designed things so the people would elect state representatives and those representatives would vote on the President. I still think it would be better if we had stuck with the original design but no you dont have a right to vote at all as the Constitution is written and certainly not for the President. Its not in there. Blacks Law Dictionary was not in existence in the 1700s.
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Offline humble

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2008, 07:58:01 PM »
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


All of these clauses bear on the right to vote in some way, but rest assured the right to vote is clearly given and protected. I'd love to here a plausible outline of how the right to vote (which you already have) would be denied in some way?

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Offline humble

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2008, 08:07:26 PM »
1st, technically we don't vote for the president and the electoral college can refuse to sit the "winner" and elect the "loser" under the law.

While some alterations have occurred in the 12th amendment fundamentally its the same process.


Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

original
The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not lie an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President

12th Amendment
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

So to the best of my knowledge its been the same since 1804...

Now the voting for senators was changed significantly in the 17th Amendment. Personally I do not agree with "universal suffrage" but so be it.

To me I'd require a high school education and some form of public service (I think we should have 2 yrs of mandated service in anything from military to habitat for humanity but something) and a job (even if we have to create it, but workfare not welfare)...but thats another topic not allowed here.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2008, 01:07:18 PM »
See? While you read that and get 'right to vote' from it... many of use read it and dont see it. As far as Im concerned there could be a right to yearly TBone steak and home fries and you would never find it. Its not clearly worded that way and I believe therefore it isnt there. Sorry.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2008, 03:39:50 PM »
The right of everyone to vote has been added by way of ammendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
— Fifteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (1870)
 
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.
— Nineteenth Amendment (1920)
 
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any
primary or other election . . . shall not be denied or abridged . . . by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
— Twenty-fourth Amendment (1964)
 
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of age.
— Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)
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Offline Fugita

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2008, 05:08:40 PM »
Dude!
It's Martial!
As in:
1  : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior   
2  : relating to an army or to military life   
3  : experienced in or inclined to war

Dude!
Relax!
As in:
1  : if that's all you have to add then stay in the back seat and be quiet
2  : if you're you're that narrow that one misspelled word bothers you this much then you need help
3  : you're not worth anymore of my time

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2008, 05:45:32 PM »
The right of everyone to vote has been added by way of ammendment

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
— Fifteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (1870)
 
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.
— Nineteenth Amendment (1920)
 
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any
primary or other election . . . shall not be denied or abridged . . . by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
— Twenty-fourth Amendment (1964)
 
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of age.
— Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)

It is my understanding that the founding fathers knew that the average citizen would in time forget the vital importance of liberty and that the average citizen did not know of or could not conceive of the proper measure by which politicians should be judged suitable for office and therefore did not infuse this right into the original document. No where in what you two have posted is it stated emphatically that there is a right to vote but only that the right to vote shall not be denied based upon given circumstances which does not of itself imply that right exists at all. The concept of the Constitution being a 'living document' which should be modified to suit modern times is not a valid argument for the 'interpretations' of any age.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2008, 11:33:41 PM »
It is my understanding that the founding fathers knew that the average citizen would in time forget the vital importance of liberty and that the average citizen did not know of or could not conceive of the proper measure by which politicians should be judged suitable for office and therefore did not infuse this right into the original document. No where in what you two have posted is it stated emphatically that there is a right to vote but only that the right to vote shall not be denied based upon given circumstances which does not of itself imply that right exists at all. The concept of the Constitution being a 'living document' which should be modified to suit modern times is not a valid argument for the 'interpretations' of any age.

But nor is the original document a be all end all document. While the original 10 may not be changed, reduced or redefined to mean something else.
I have found no evidence or wording to suggest that further amendments are not allowed to be added. So long as they are not in defiance of the original 10
That is why there are called "amendments" to begin with.
the very definition of the word Ammendment
"1.   the act of amending or the state of being amended.
2.   an alteration of or addition to a motion, bill, constitution, etc.

It might well be noted that the "original document" was created and approved in 1791.
It wasnt for another 4 years that the 11th amendment was added. And thirteen years before the 12th amendment was added.

So even to the founding fathers it was clear that additions may have to be made. As they had done so themselves

I would agree that the original document is indeed a "dead document" as Chief justice Scalea would put it.
But I would not agree that other amendments could not be added if they indeed meet Constitutional muster of the first 10
In that manner it is a living document as it may be amended.

Example. An amendment prohibiting individuals to own and carry weapons (remember. the second says "arms" it does not specify or limit the type of arms)
Would not meet the constitutional muster of the original 10 because it specifically states that the rights of "the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
With the word "infringed" being the operative word there
1.   to commit a breach or infraction of; violate or transgress: to infringe a copyright; to infringe a rule.
–verb (used without object)
2.to encroach or trespass (usually fol. by on or upon)

Likewise an amendment regulating those weapons may indeed meet muster because the 2nd does specifically mention "a well regulated milita"
the trick there is. What exactly was intended by the statement of "regulated"?

But an amendment guaranteeing the right to vote would wholly meet such muster as while you are correct. The right to vote is not specifically mentioned in the original 10. Nor is it specifically denied.
At the time of the writing. the right to vote was left up to the individual states where it was most often limited to "white men with property" But was obviously later expanded

It can be  claimed that the right to vote would be considered one of our liberties and as such and covered under the 1st amendment "petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
What after all is an election but one giant petition.
And in this election in particular fits very well LOL

and 5th
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law


The 9th (which alot of people seem to forget about)
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

And the 10th
 Tenth Amendment – Powers of states and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

The 9th in particular points out that just because said right isnt mentioned in the previous eight. Does not mean it doesnt exist.

It can be construed that the 15th reaffirms this as one can not be denied the right to vote because of previous condition of servitude.
As anyone who was'nt/isnt a property owner would by default be in a position of servant status. If you have a job for a business you do not own. What are you but a servant of your employer?
while that can be argued. what cant be is it does not mention a specific condition of servitude granted rights to vote. but rather regardless of that condition. Be they slave or slave owner.

The 19h then defined it even more finely to refuse denial based on sex. Again. does not mention male or female specifically there by default is set to include members of both, or in some case all sexes.
 etc etc

As time has progressed these amendments were added not in violation of the original document. But to more specifically define and clarify widely accepted rights as mentioned in the 9th and 10th amendments.

I see no reference made anywhere in the original document. Granting the government the power to restrict anyone's right to vote.

It is my understanding that the time of the writing there were great arguments made over this very subject.
In the end they left it up to individual states.
Once left up to the individual states. It then falls under the 9th and more specifically the 10th.

If we defer it to the 10th. As would seem the logical move then the answer should be simple.

If your state. Gives you the right to vote.
Then you have that right.
But the states may not deny you that right based on Race,level of servitude, Sex,failure to pay taxes, or because of your age if you are over 18.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 11:35:16 PM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2008, 02:24:48 AM »
Drediock you missed your calling. Being that long winded with just a little practice you could best Al Gore.  :aok
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Offline DMBEAR

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2008, 02:43:41 AM »
Long ago I heard that there was one right I could possibly attain.

Three wise men once sang a bold song to me that I have to fight for my right to party.  I have been searching for the recordings of those teachings, but the channel I once heard them on quit playing music, and instead has been only showing super sweet 16 b-day parties.

Offline rod367th

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Re: Civil Rights and Liberties
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2008, 02:52:07 AM »
There is only ONE "right" that makes much sense to me...the right to do whatever hell you want with yourself and your property and live unmolested, excepting you interfere with that right for others.

All the other "rights" worth having are more or less just extensions of that principle.



lol never heard of Eminent Domain i take it. I have IT SUCKS