Its tested, Hispano is too powerful tank killer

[SKurj]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Ok reality check here:

First of all, YES hispano can kill a tank- the same ammo in both a tiffie and a spit could destroy armored locomotives and tanks. Spits were not usually used for this because they were both more vulnerable when low, and the pilots were annoyed by having to do ground attacks.

HMMM, i've just finished reading an autobiography of a Canadian Spit pilot in ww2.  It gives the impression that 75% of his missions once the invasion of Italy had commenced to the end of the war, were Ground attack missions.  All in Spit9's.  The missions were actually very good for morale because the pilots got to fire their guns!! often returning empty.

About the FW cannon... Perhaps HTC could model the MK103 long barrelled 30mm, which was much better for the anti tank role, due to a much higher muzzle velocity.

SKurj/BlackFly

[SKurj]

In that same autobiography (canuck spit pilot ww2)  He also mentions ground attack missions where his flight finds itself strafing tanks:
quote:
We We frequently attacked German Tiger and Panther tanks, but their 6" armor plating was qite impervious to our cannon shells unless we managed to score a lucky hit in the rear exhaust close to the fuel storage tanks.  They were a piece of cake for the rocket firing Typhoons though.  On one occasion while I made several attacks on 2 tanks in the Falaise area, I noticed a squadron of Typhoons circling above me waiting, it seemed while I had my fun, after which they would show me how it is done.  I made way and 4 "Tiffies" pelled off and dove on the targets.  8 rockets were loosed.  When I dived down to have a look after their attack, there were only two blackened spots and some twisted debris - but no tanks.  They had been blown to smithereens!

Blue Skies, Bill Olmsted isbn 0-7737-5213-7

Ok, those were Panthers or Tigers, the author doesn't specify in this particular engagement.

Just my input to the pile
Hope i find a job soon..

SKurj/Blackfly

SKurj

[MANDOBLE]

Toad, it seems sjthornton@home.com works fine, Thunder should have my films ready for posting.
I've checked your site and found only two films from a test with someone called "Mondoble", dont know who can he be ...  

[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 07-16-2000).]

[funked]

Hispano rounds SHOULD be significantly more powerful than the wimpy MG 151/20 round.  Bigger shell, higher muzzle velocity, and better ballistic performance.

But I don't think ANY of the 20 mm guns should have an easy time with tank armor.  If the 20 mm guns were sufficient to kill tanks, then why did both sides spend a LOT of time and money developing anti-tank rockets for the Fw 190 and the Typhoon?  If the guns could do the job then why would anyone carry these heavy, high-drag items into battle?

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Skurj:

Yes spits often strafed things on the way home- but these were not ground attack jobs. They were flying air patrol and would love to strafe a target if it was an easy mark and they got to fire their guns  
  The more you read of spit pilots the more you realize they HATED jabo or ground attack missions. They were the same as german aces who felt it was beneath them to waste time looking for ground targets to shoot at. Plus older spit drivers learned the hard way that ground fire can put a spit down very easily- glycol hits were easy to do on a diving spit.

  As for his memoirs 2 things to think of, first of all a panther or tiger is a totally different mark than a mkIV armor wise- they would take a hell of a beating to kill. Second- in the plane the spit driver might have no idea of the damage he did. Rarely would hispano blow the tank up- rather it would crack and split plates, harm crew and damage the tank beyond opertional use. More likely than not after he was done strafing those tanks the tiffies just added fireworks to an allready dead tank.

Funked: The germans did it because they had no cannons capable of damaging a tank on a 190 and Ju series planes were becoming ducks to fighters. Allies did it either because a rocket is more effective (true in AH as well) and because it allowed more damage to be done  to tanks 20mm could only damage or not even tickle.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Allies did it either because a rocket is more effective (true in AH as well) and because it allowed more damage to be done  to tanks 20mm could only damage or not even tickle.

At least in AH nobody bothers to grab rocket when you can alot more safely strafe tank from every angle with F4u-1c...
Rocket is alot more inaccurate and does not even necessarily do anything if hits, when those 50mm hispanos does the job anyway quicker, safer, longer range, more reliable and less dragging.

[funked]

Sorrow, Fishu, that's the point I'm trying to make.  The rockets were developed because the 20 mm cannon didn't cut it.  Even the MK 103 on the Hs 129 didn't work that great.  The fact that the cannons are more effective than the rockets in this game indicates something is not quite right.

[funked]

BTW Sorrow, 308 Sqn flew Spit LF IX and XVI as ground attack aircraft almost exclusively from then end of 1943 until the end of the war.  They used the 3-bomb loadout quite often.  They flew air patrols for sure, but mostly they did low level search and destroy with bombs and guns.

[Torque]

Fishu,
What handle are you currently using to conduct these tests in the MA?
A quick check of the stats for Fishu in tour 5 and 6 shows no sorties or ordinance expended at all.

Perhaps you are using a new handle on a trial account or something.


LOL Cobra cracks are forming in the foundation.

[SKurj]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Skurj:

Yes spits often strafed things on the way home- but these were not ground attack jobs. They were flying air patrol and would love to strafe a target if it was an easy mark and they got to fire their guns  
  The more you read of spit pilots the more you realize they HATED jabo or ground attack missions.

EEEEEEERRRRRRR  excuse me?

Sorrow, are u telling me that this autobiography is telling me lies?  
126 wing:
360 enemy ac destroyed
15 probables
153 damaged
4468 enemy vehicles destroyed or damaged
496 locomotives destroyed or disabled
1569 rail cars useless
426 cuts in rail lines

Granted some exaggeration could have occured.  The author (pilot) who wrote this basically states that most missions they were assigned ground attacks.  Largely due to the fact that there was soo little enemy air activity, they weren't required for the A - A role.  Of course this only in the latter half of the war once his squad left Malta.

SKurj

[spora]

 

Spora- Aircraft destroyed tanks in a different manner than land guns. Handheld and tank based anti tank weapons fired 1 round and if it penetrated it destroyed the tank. Aircraft fired hundreds per second so that 4, 5 or 10 high velocity explosive rounds hit the same area at roughly the same time. This meant that smaller high velocity projectiles were just as effective as higher caliber ones. A plate that is 122mm thick is just as vulnerable to getting split or torn off it's weld by 10 high velocy 20mm hitting at once as 1 75mm hitting it. Of course.. on land you can't go round and attack again at 200 mph  Better to go for 1 hit than try to get 10 or 20!

I understand the effect of hitting the same area repeatedly.  That's how you can penetrate a concrete wall with a 7,62 mm - after a few hundred rounds around the same area.

Fast moving planes and the (possible) relative motion of a tank pretty much make the above scenario impossible.  Also the impact angle is quite low.

BTW, I just looked up one of my sources. It claims Pzkw IV ausfuerung J had 30 mm side armour and 20 mm top.

[spora]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
Look at the muzzle velocity of that anti-tank rifle. It's 80 m/s lower than the Hispano. The Hispano is also fired from a moving plane, which will increase it's MV to about 1000m/s, considerably more than the anti-tank rifle.

IHMO that 80 m/s is not significant.  A very good rule of thumb for WWII era weapons is that if the muzzle velocity is anywhere over 700 m/s and the projectile is "armour piercing", then the penetration at 60 degree angle from 300-500 metres is about the same as the calibre.

20 mm shell penetrates 20mm, 45mm 45mm etc.

There are significant exceptions, too.  Some high calibre weapons had inferior ammo.  Some weapons had longer barrel and better ammo.  But generally the above rule applies.

It also applies to HEAT ammo, with the exception that HEAT does not lose armour penetration capability with distance.