Dont think plane....think ACM

[humble]

Just happened to film this one yesterday. It's a fight I never really had a chance in beyond a brief glimmer of a 1 timer early that would have been lottery winner type odds. For newer players or those developing dogfighting skills it might offer a bit of insight in 2 area's...

1) ACM over plane type, even an A-20 can "get around" well enough to T&B if you hit the sweet spots. All to often I run into (or worked with as a trainer way back) guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy (or gal). Learn to work the plane, dont let the plane work you...

2) Lose sight, lose the fight. Notice that even with the A-20 art work I pretty much know where the FM-2 is. If I dont pick him back up on my 1st option he's there at my second choice. This is actually essential for good ACM development. 1st you cant find the guy, then you can only watch him kill you, then you learn to counter, then to meet the move "even and finally how to "jump the route" and steal victory. Even though I got out flown here I had both an early look and then a brief glimmer of an overshoot. Slaps instinctive counter and awareness of where I was and what I was trying to do secured a W where a lesser stick might have faltered.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a-20vsFM2.ahf

[PFactorDave]

Thanks for posting that.  I love watching films like this.  I wish more folks would post them up for those of us who are still learning to watch and analyze.

On a side note, a friend joined up as gunner would have made short work of that guy.  Your turret would have been in play quite a bit if you had a gunner.

[humble]

It's always hard for me to tell which films are actually going to help and which end up more as "look at me" clips. not that there is anything wrong the latter either...as long as there is an underlying merit. I've always marveled at the guys who seem to have the intuitive reversals, barrel rolls aggressive one timers down. I lost a fight in the SEA "furball" setup to stang last night on a shot that baffled me. He hit me from 500 or more with a P-39 37mm while in a full stall. To me thats the guy who trips driving for a last 2nd shot and tosses up an underhand half court shot as he does a face plant and gets nothing but net....then the SOB did basically the same @#$3 to me again....argghhhh. Bat always amazes me with his reversals, not just the ACM but the control and timing...literally it seems like the gun sight just magically aligns as the con flies thru...amazing.

Here is the other clip I was considering. If you look you'll see the similarity in the ACM except I have the room to fly more in the vertical. Two things to note in addition to the above is how much throttle work i'm doing. i'm not using the vertical for speed but for angles and lift vector management. This is a good example of what I mean by "jumping the route". I'm so far ahead of the hog driver I'm literally sitting waiting for the 4:05 to arrive. I end up way to far in front and have to wait on him to the point I bleed off to much E and cant finish the shot. Also notice on the run after the shot setting up that reverse to the water to force him off the other way. Now if he's not burning I probably lose that fight given the damage I took...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/chogflambe.ahf

[Anaxogoras]

I'm curious to know why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down, though you yourself admit you didn't have much chance.

1) ACM over plane type, even an A-20 can "get around" well enough to T&B if you hit the sweet spots. All to often I run into (or worked with as a trainer way back) guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy (or gal). Learn to work the plane, dont let the plane work you...

I find your statement here too mystical to be helpful.  Can you be more precise?

[BnZs]

I'm curious to know why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down, though you yourself admit you didn't have much chance.

I find your statement here too mystical to be helpful.  Can you be more precise?

You must be as a reed in the wind, neither resisting nor giving way.

[Anaxogoras]

You must be as a reed in the wind, grass-hoppa, neither resisting nor giving way.

[The Fugitive]

I think it means to be the pilot you can be. Know your plane and use its advantages and quirks against the enemy. Your thinking about the plane vs plane engagement. This quote, "why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down" proves it. He only knew he was in trouble because he knew it was "slap" in the F4F. Had it been an average player in the F4F he most likely would have won the fight..... thats why he fights a F4F with an A20. He pits his skills and ACM's against what should be .....on paper anyway.... an un-even fight.

That's what we are talking about in these threads about simmers fighting for the fun of the fight. Or teaching the "quake style" player how to play. Its not about where you sit on the scoreboard, its all about the fight. WHich do you think would be more fun, beat slap in his F4F with an A20, or beat him while BnZing in a 190D9? Slapshot is a good stick, but I wouldn't take a heck of a lot of pride in killing him with an D9, just means my aim was better than his jink on one pass. But a turning fiht in a plane that shouldn't ....on paper again even be in the fight would be something both pilots would talk about for hours afterwards.

Maybe its time you rethink the game   

[uberslet]

I'm curious to know why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down, though you yourself admit you didn't have much chance.

I find your statement here too mystical to be helpful.  Can you be more precise?

i think what he means is that if you rely on the plane to kill them, it wont ever get you any better because YOU are not trying, the plane is. in cintrast, if YOU work the plane, you will get better, push the plane, someday it will pay off; maybe not today or tomorrow, maybe next week. thats how i feel.

[humble]

I'm curious to know why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down, though you yourself admit you didn't have much chance.

I find your statement here too mystical to be helpful.  Can you be more precise?

Why wouldnt I fight an FM-2 if thats what I found? From my perspective I can beat any plane in the game if I fly my best fight. Is that a realistic viewpoint...of course not...but then again I had a 5 kill SBD hop over tanktown last night (2 zekes, 2 ponies and a hurricane){of course I got discoed right on final so sometimes you can beat the otherguy but not misfortune}.

I almost got a great shot on slap early, I think I got 1 ping right around the cockpit area. Later in the fight I almost got a shot on the overshoot...I give a lot more credit to slap then I do to the FM-2 there. Now if you'd asked me why I bothered to fight slapshot 1 on 1 then I wouldnt have a good answer beyond that how you get better.

I dont see anything mystical at all about any part of my "statement"...care to elaborate on what you didnt understand? But I'll try and explain what I mean by a "sweet spot"...

While every plane has a performance envelope thats different there is much more difference at the edge then in center. low speed turning/high speed control authority/compression/stall are all significant variables. In the "mid-zone" where all planes can still pull Max G's the flow of the fight swings more on measured BFM's in response to (or to force the other guys hand) even as a fight moves toward the extreme proper ACM can provide a window of opportunity if not countered. Using the fight with slap as the example it was his textbook response to my move that denied any real shot on the overshoot. You'd be amazed at how high the % numbers are that I win on the overshoot in that scenario. Now in this case slap is managing the fight to negate my "moves" and force the fight to the edge of my flight envelope. Knowing its him I went all in early and just didnt get him on the way up. I regrouped and worked plan B and was busy rummaging in the glove box for a can of wupazz when I hit the water . Did I have a prayer...probably not but I was going to a vertical scissors rotating top type of deal hoping to catch him crossing back from his nose down shot profile. Nothing I was doing there was gamey or floppy...well strung BFM and proper manipulation of throttle and lift vector work in any plane...not just the uber ones.

[CAP1]

I'm curious to know why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down, though you yourself admit you didn't have much chance.

I find your statement here too mystical to be helpful.  Can you be more precise?

i'd say he probably thought it was gonna be fun, regardless of the outcome.

[Anaxogoras]

I dont see anything mystical at all about any part of my "statement"...care to elaborate on what you didnt understand?

Yes, I'll try to elaborate:

All to often I run into (or worked with as a trainer way back) guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy (or gal).

Part of me thinks "how could relying on the plane's ability be construed as a bad thing?"  Getting the most out your aircraft is paramount.  Perhaps you mean that these people lack a basic knowledge of ACM and just pull back on the stick hoping for something good to happen?  If that's what you mean, I'm puzzled why you call that relying on the plane's ability, because if anything that's an under-utilization of the plane's ability.

Learn to work the plane, dont let the plane work you...

This is what I called mystical.  It sounds like something a sports psychologist or an inspiring coach would say in a movie.  "Don't let the plane work you," is so open to interpretation, whatever precise meaning you had in mind is lost in metaphor to the neutral reader.

[Anaxogoras]

i'd say he probably thought it was gonna be fun, regardless of the outcome.

I have the most fun when my opponents do their best not to let me shoot them down.

[Anaxogoras]

I think it means to be the pilot you can be. Know your plane and use its advantages and quirks against the enemy. Your thinking about the plane vs plane engagement. This quote, "why you tried to fight an FM2 1vs1 in A-20, short of seeing how long it would take for him to shoot you down" proves it. He only knew he was in trouble because he knew it was "slap" in the F4F. Had it been an average player in the F4F he most likely would have won the fight..... thats why he fights a F4F with an A20. He pits his skills and ACM's against what should be .....on paper anyway.... an un-even fight.

That's what we are talking about in these threads about simmers fighting for the fun of the fight. Or teaching the "quake style" player how to play. Its not about where you sit on the scoreboard, its all about the fight. WHich do you think would be more fun, beat slap in his F4F with an A20, or beat him while BnZing in a 190D9? Slapshot is a good stick, but I wouldn't take a heck of a lot of pride in killing him with an D9, just means my aim was better than his jink on one pass. But a turning fiht in a plane that shouldn't ....on paper again even be in the fight would be something both pilots would talk about for hours afterwards.

Maybe its time you rethink the game   

Going into the fight with the hope that the other guy will screw up just seems cheeky to me.  It's big show of temerity, which is not a prized quality in a fighter pilot.

I also take offense against characterizing my criticism as representing a quake-style of play.  Approaching the game as a simulation, which I do, is not consistent with intentionally getting shot down.

[Anaxogoras]

While every plane has a performance envelope thats different there is much more difference at the edge then in center. low speed turning/high speed control authority/compression/stall are all significant variables. In the "mid-zone" where all planes can still pull Max G's the flow of the fight swings more on measured BFM's in response to (or to force the other guys hand) even as a fight moves toward the extreme proper ACM can provide a window of opportunity if not countered. Using the fight with slap as the example it was his textbook response to my move that denied any real shot on the overshoot. You'd be amazed at how high the % numbers are that I win on the overshoot in that scenario. Now in this case slap is managing the fight to negate my "moves" and force the fight to the edge of my flight envelope. Knowing its him I went all in early and just didnt get him on the way up. I regrouped and worked plan B and was busy rummaging in the glove box for a can of wupazz when I hit the water . Did I have a prayer...probably not but I was going to a vertical scissors rotating top type of deal hoping to catch him crossing back from his nose down shot profile. Nothing I was doing there was gamey or floppy...well strung BFM and proper manipulation of throttle and lift vector work in any plane...not just the uber ones.

To be fair, that was some nice flying snaphook.   I try similar tricks in the 190F-8 when I am targeted by faster, more nimble aircraft, but frequently end up in the tower.

[humble]

So how to you explain the success the fins had with the Brewster Buffalo and Hawk75 or the success that the Poles had with the PLZ (?) biplanes. Your making an assumption that you just got to choose your ride and the terms of engagement. While this is a flight sim its not a "war sim". So put yourself in the position of Floyd Parks who has 21 F2A-3's and just 7 F4F-3's to face the expected 100+ Japanese fighters and bombers expected to attack Midway and has to choose who will fly the available F4F's. Or how about Marion Carl (dont know who the 2nd pilot was), one of 2 survivors of the initial engagement with a flyable plane rolling with one other F4F to meet the expected 2nd attack on midway. To us rising to meet the incoming horde is a game, for him it was a reality. A-20's engaged in air to air combat fairly often, not out of choice but out of circumstance.

I dont ever make excuses or hide behing my choice of plane. I flew 3 hops vs slap in the A-20 and lost all 3...and trust me I'll be looking for 4 thru 6 if the chance arises.