Dont think plane....think ACM

[Steve]

Personally, I fly the Ki84 most of the time and I really feel good about life when I knock a Spit16/LA7/N1K/etc out of the sky.  I've enjoyed the game quite a bit more since I stopped flying Spits and N1Ks and switched to mostly the KI84. 

Yup, I saw your ki84 yesterday.

[crazyivan]

don't trust steve hes the p51 on yah 6 

[The Fugitive]

There are classes of aircraft that are superlative in a multi-vs-multi environment, but which are poor 1vs1.  The 190D-9 is one of those.  Although it's superior to the Spitfire9 in general, 1vs1 isn't interesting.

You are getting away from my point here. You implied that killing (insert good stick here) while he was in a F4F would be shamefully easy in a D9 or (Insert high-powered poor turning E fighter) but you would garner alot more bragging rights by hauling back on the stick in a t'n'b with him in a similar-turning aircraft.

 I disagree. I think if anything a top speed/horsepower advantage takes more experience and gunnery skills to convert into a kill than a nimbleness advantage in a 1v1. That is all I mean.

You guys are missing the point, your focusing too much on plane types! ....huh much like the heading of this thread 

All I'm saying is if your in a "hotrod" against one of the old "antiques", YOUR suppose to win, so the challenge and yes the thrill level is lower. But if your in the old "antique" and you whoop up on the "hotrod" its a fight your not suppose to win, but now the challenge and thrill levels increase because of that. You use your knowledge of ACM and skill to to get a win out of a bad situation. Thats what we are talking about, not this plane vs that plane, not even "that plane I'm comfortable in".   

[bongaroo]

Personally, I fly the Ki84 most of the time and I really feel good about life when I knock a Spit16/LA7/N1K/etc out of the sky.  I've enjoyed the game quite a bit more since I stopped flying Spits and N1Ks and switched to mostly the KI84.  My problem is that I need a 30 ENY alternative plane to fly when ENY caps out.  I have yet to find a 30+ ENY plane that feels right to me.

Welcome to the Ki-84 club.  You will be very happy you joined.  Your collectible key chain is in the mail with your official club membership certificate.

Be prepared chew up N1Ks and Spixtweens while making it look easy.  Laugh as the P-51 does the only thing it can against a Ki-84 and point it's nose straight for the deck, running with it's tail between it's legs.

The Ki-84 is IMHO the most underated plane in the entire LW set.  Oh, and you can carry 2 x 250kg bombs if your into that kind of thing.

 

[SIK1]

BnZ has a certain amount of luck. I pick my angle, anticipate which way slap is going to break, take my shot. If Slap is a bit off on his timing, or I get lucky and and pic the right spot and poof he's down. Am I proud of that kill, not really, I got lucky, or Slap was unlucky because he picked the wrong move. But if we fought it all the way to the deck twisting and turning picking pieces of of each other until one of us dies. Would I be proud of that kill heck ya !!

I've killed humble a number of times, most I wasn't to proud of, I played it safe and picked him apart from a distance while he kill many others. One fight we were both in hogs and we fought from 8k to the deck. I knew I was in trouble, and finally got picked by a nik I couldn't avoid due to all the parts humble knocked off. I lost, but that fight was over a year ago and it still gets my heart pumping to think about it.

Those are the kills to be proud of, those are the fights that keep me playing this game. Vulchin, pickin, ganging, no skill kills, but that is what most of the player go for because they are the easiest, takes the least amount of time to learn. Quakers learn the tricks and short cuts, simmers learn something new in each fight.

Joe this is right on.
There are those that get it, and there are those that don't. You just can't explain it to the ones that don't. They don't understand about the good fight. All they care about is their name in lights to validate their uber skills in the game. Never mind that their validation comes from picks and vulches, in their minds it makes them the big men of the game.

[Anaxogoras]

You guys are missing the point, your focusing too much on plane types! ....huh much like the heading of this thread 

All I'm saying is if your in a "hotrod" against one of the old "antiques", YOUR suppose to win, so the challenge and yes the thrill level is lower. But if your in the old "antique" and you whoop up on the "hotrod" its a fight your not suppose to win, but now the challenge and thrill levels increase because of that. You use your knowledge of ACM and skill to to get a win out of a bad situation. Thats what we are talking about, not this plane vs that plane, not even "that plane I'm comfortable in".   

No, you're missing the point.  Let me put in another way: 1vs1, it's frequently easier to kill an antique with another antique than with a hotrod.  It's more of a challenge to kill a Spit9 with a 190D9 1vs1 than viceversa.  Even more strange, it's easier to kill a Spixteen with a 109F-4 than with a 190D-9.

Stop this "ACM conquers all" nonesense.  What sort of acm does a 190D-9 use to beat a Spit9 in a 1vs1 fight, short of the Spit9 pilot making a big mistake?  You don't want to talk about aircraft because talking about aircraft forces specifics, and when we get to specifics your position doesn't hold up.  Using ACM to get a win out of a bad situation always supposes that the opponent screws up.  It's great when it happens, but foolish to rely on it.

[BnZs]

You guys are missing the point, your focusing too much on plane types! ....huh much like the heading of this thread 

You keep trying to change the subject on me. Hint, I'm not the guy embroiled in a broad philosophical discussion with Snaphook. I was addressing ONE particular error, which you repeat right here:

All I'm saying is if your in a "hotrod" against one of the old "antiques", YOUR suppose to win, so the challenge and yes the thrill level is lower. But if your in the old "antique" and you whoop up on the "hotrod" its a fight your not suppose to win, but now the challenge and thrill levels increase because of that. You use your knowledge of ACM and skill to to get a win out of a bad situation.

Suddenly it is about plane types again...

I repeat, 1v1 in actual gameplay, the late-war "hotrod" is not necessarily superior to the theoretically inferior earlier kite. If the guy in the late war brick bounces the guy in early war kite, both being competent, he must have good acm and good gunnery to have much of a prayer of converting his advantage to a kill, or the fellow in the more maneuverable aircraft will just keep dodging his way to a stalemate. And if the guy in the energy fighter gets bounced at low speed by the early war fighter, he will have to do some very fancy flying to even get away, much less get the kill. So yeah, a plane like the Dora is not really "easy mode" compared to something like the Hurricane IIC, no matter what their model-year is.

[humble]

" Using ACM to get a win out of a bad situation always supposes that the opponent screws up.  It's great when it happens, but foolish to rely on it."

Your entirely missing the point of ACM which is to either force or entice a mistake. Air combat does not assume that you have a superior plane or a superior position. It is not "foolish" it is simply the skill required to succeed against the odds vs simply only engaging from a position of superiority.

[humble]

BnZ I always welcome the chess match. In the end the guy flying the "buzz bomb" either has to commit to more of an energy fight or accept low probability shots or give up. I don't ever expect the other guy to fly "my fight" and recognize that I need to give him an attractive target to entice a shot window.

[BnZs]

BnZ I always welcome the chess match. In the end the guy flying the "buzz bomb" either has to commit to more of an energy fight or accept low probability shots or give up. I don't ever expect the other guy to fly "my fight" and recognize that I need to give him an attractive target to entice a shot window.

Correct.

I've done Dora vs. Spit. Lately I've had the occasion to do  abit of F4F vs. Spit. I know which one is easier. The advantage of the Dora is being able to say "f-- it!" and RTB when they bring nine Spits against you in the MA. Otherwise killing a single with the Wildcat is usually easier unless they run.

[Anaxogoras]

Your entirely missing the point of ACM which is to either force or entice a mistake.

I disagree that the point of ACM is to cause the opponent to make a mistake.  The point of ACM is to make the right maneuver at the right time to maximize the probability of a kill.  When you're at the point where your best chance is a swindle, you've already lost the ACM game, because a correct move on the part of your opponent will always defeat the swindle.  In that way, there's no such thing as "forcing a mistake."  They can be induced with clever ruses, but the responsibility for mistakes always lies with the one who makes it.

[humble]

There has never been a perfectly flown fight vs a quality opponent in either real life or on a sim. Air combat is at its core a game of mistakes.

[PFactorDave]

Here's how I look at the issue...

Take two identically skilled pilots and put them into identical aircraft...  If a fight starts at precisely equal E states, it should be a never ending draw.  But seriously, how realistic is that entire scenario?

There are always inequalities.  Different aircraft abilities...  Different Energy states...  Different skill levels...

I believe that a highly skilled pilot can be victorious in an inferior plane through the superior use of ACMs.  This of course implies that he will outfly his opponent who is in a superior aircraft.

Which I think is exactly what Humble is trying to communicate....  Through superior application of Air Combat Manuevers, a skilled pilot can defeat a pilot in a better aircraft.  So we should worry less about what we are flying, and concern ourselves more with how we are flying.  By doing so, we can be victorious in situations that some people would believe were impossible for us.

[Anaxogoras]

There has never been a perfectly flown fight vs a quality opponent in either real life or on a sim. Air combat is at its core a game of mistakes.

It's funny that air combat is often compared to chess, but in a way it's an accurate metaphor.  ACM is a general theory that espouses certain principles that manifest themselves in specific maneuvers.  Other things being equal, the pilot who has greater mastery of ACM will win.  Good chess play is also a general theory that espouses principals which have concrete application in certain circumstances.  Just as their has never been a perfectly flown example of air combat, no human has ever played a perfect game of chess.  However, one of the quickest ways to find yourself checkmated by a good chess player is to hope that he will make mistakes, and to make moves that rely on an inferior response.  There are some fun examples of master chess players being swindled when their opponent is on the ropes, but they are the exception rather than the rule.  The best way to advance in both air combat and chess is to make the move that anticipates the best possible response from the opponent.  Perfection cannot be achieved, but perfection is the target at which we aim.

[humble]

Just defining what a "mistake" is is a huge portion of the game. As murdr pointed out 95% of his job is actually correcting misconceptions regarding what is correct ACM. How do you learn correct ACM and what do you do when you meet a tempest or pony in your dora that has E and alt on you? Most good spit IX drivers dont fear a high dora because the pilot is usually lacking in basic skills.

If you look at the 2 SBD clips you'll see both the seafire and the hurricane offer me their tail at one point. The hurricane did it correctly with proper regard to the situation while the seafire tried it at the wrong time (not that it mattered in the end). My ACM vs the hurricane was poor. now what part of this was wrong in general and waht was plane specific. IMO at this point it was pretty much plane specific but i'll review my understanding of general principles as well and then contemplate how I better approach a fight with a plane that handles better at high AoA is more docile at unusual attitude and has superior control authority by a wide margin in a low speed nose up configuration.

All of what I learn is applicable in general, specific to the hurricane in any plane and finally in my quest to leanr how to beat a hurricane even up in an SBD (which i'm 90% confidant I can do)...