An axis versus allies arena

[Suave1]

Aside from scenarios, the most fun I ever had in a sim was flying axis in the ETO AvA arena in AWIII . To me, pork arenas are for quakers and practicing for scenarios . But for the moment it's the only one we have in AH .

[Vermillion]

Wingnut, the reason I have formed my opinon, is that I have tried both flavors (MA vs Historical), and found that for a full time arena the historical is quite bitter for my tastes.

Don't get me wrong, I love Scenarios, and put alot of work into the ones we have in AH, and use to do the same back in AW.

But the problem is that too me, the historical matchups quickly become very boring, and very limiting, when flown on a full time basis.

For instance say we're in the middle part (pre Pony and A8) of the RPS in the Axis vs Allied Arenas over in WB's. Most every fight you get into with fighters will be a Spit IX versus either Fw190A4 or the Me109G6, and the Allied Medium & Heavy bombers will be rolling back the Axis bases like clockwork (No matter what you do the Axis will never compete with the Allies in the bomber category). Also there probably be a 2:1 numbers advantage for the Allies.

After about 5 sorties, this bores the ever living crap outta me, from either side. Its just not fun. The fights are constantly against one or maybe two different plane types, depending on where in the RPS you are, and which is the "plane of the day". And there is always a serious numbers imbalance, in the two sided fight.

*shrugs* I dont' know more to say than that. I've tried both, and prefer what we have here currently for a main arena format. And I get my "historical" fix in Scenarios and Snapshots.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fokker]

Vermillion must have gotten a tottaly different picture of the WW2 arena than most other pilots. There is no question about that arena quicly becomming the most popular.

I kind of liked the limmited plane set in the early part of the tour, and the fact that you met planes that was matched historically correct.

In the early part of the tour LW had the edge most of the time. In the late part of the tour this changed in allie favour. Just as it did in real life.

This represented an extra challenge to both allie and axis side. The only real lack I found was the lack of comparable axis bombers to the allie bombers. In here AH already have the Arado bomber, which makes this balance better then in WB.

You will still have the opertunity to fly the plane of your choise. It only means that you some times will change side to have it. That is just fine to me.

[bowser]

Fokker,

Before you tell us how wildly popular the WWII arena is in Warbirds, you should be aware that a lot of us read AGW, and periodically fly WBs, or at least did.  The WWII arena is a constant source of arguments, with one side complaining the other has better aircraft, sideswitching causing gangbangs, etc.  There may be a way to make Allied vs Axis successful, but most ex-WBs players would be very leery.

bowser

[danish]

True the WWII arena is debated constantly on the AGW, but often it more about details like introduction date of the A4 or Pony.Anyway the dabate isnt more sinister than what we see on this board on gangbanging ect :=)Overall the arena is reasonally balanced IMO - still play there from time to time, allways LW.

I would like a WWII arena myself - or a HA "on the side".HTC has clearly stated that they do not want to set an HA up, and as they have made a virtue out of *not* doing what WB does I doubt if we will see any action taken.At least for a good time to come.

I agree with Fokker that if (!) WWII Online delivers we will see a flux of players pretty soon.WWII Online has announced only a short open beta, and people generelly dont want to pay for two games.That might speed things up a bit here..

danish

[Montezuma]

 

Originally posted by Suave1:
Aside from scenarios, the most fun I ever had in a sim was flying axis in the ETO AvA arena in AWIII . To me, pork arenas are for quakers and practicing for scenarios . But for the moment it's the only one we have in AH .

The AWIII AvA arena was exactly the same land grab porkfest that the regular areans are, but with a different map and only a few planes available for each side.

They should not split the plane sets just because a few luftwaffles are scared of the PAC planes in the MA.

[illo]

Yup WW2 arena is great fun to play IMHO. It gives me more feel of simulation and i try to rtb alive after every sortie. Role play element comes in there.

Vermillion stated he doesnt like real matchups for long and these get boring. I feel just opposite. I learn much more about enemy different aircrafts capabilities, new tricks and new tactics when im facing same planes constantly. I've learned how to fight spit V in 109e or 109f4 as anyb other RL matchups. In current AH arena i never could have enough time to concentrate on one type to learn all those things.

For example how many here knows if you can use spiralclimb in 109e4 against spit V?
Or which is faster Spit V or 109f-4 at 5km altitude? I find these things interesting...not boring.

Also i think these long range neon signs which hang in air over planes could be turned off in WW2 arena. Suprises and SA are large factor in ww2 era aircombat. In fact majority of fighter vs fighter kills came where victim never saw attacker. I think icons are gamey.period. I could call it auto SA  

But icons are necessary in current main because you have to fight nikis and chogs with nikis and chogs...my trial time was boring because i mostly saw only these two planes. In contrast fights in my 190a8 against la-5fn, p51s, spits and p47s were great experiences...p47s and p51s i saw rarely though...only once in larger formation in 2 week period. And yes those icons were almost shouting "190 here!" to hordes of chogs.

AH sure looks beautiful and I like FMs here...best flightsim I ever played.    


[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-20-2001).]

[DB603]

S!

 Agreed.We could use somekinda ETO/PTO stuff here,if not an AvA.And those neon signs.Why not just turn off enemy icons and set friendly icons to very short range(less than 3k) and disable the automatic laser range totally(from buffs too).As LLv34 trains with icons off it adds VERY much to this game.Shooting is more accurate(must judge distance better),SA develops much faster since U have to scan the air space constantly and can't time Your moves by looking at the icon telling the distance to/from enemy AC.And the color of the plane plays an important rule too.Not too easy to spot a B26/Ju88/UFO/109/190(for example) against the ground and the USAF planes scream their presence against the ground with silverish finish  
 What I am trying to say here is that we could get rid of ICONS/RANGE.Then IMO buff guns lose a part of their lethality,even they are beefed up at the moment,fights are no more spray & pray,U can use terrain to escape,need to get good SA etc.Friendly icon could be a simple dot above the plane or as now the name WITHOUT range.U would know U are less than 3k away since U can see the icon  Training arena could have everything on.Scenarios should have short range friendly icon only,since the planeset is usually axis vs allies.And to get rid of C47 for axis..give us Ju52!End of whine...




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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[Fokker]

Good points about icons. I have often wondered how it would work to have the choise of icons or not. Today we can turn off icons if we want, but they will still show for the enemy. How would it work if it also went off for the enemy?

In this case it would suit both those who want icons, and those who dont.

I can see myself using icons on for long range detection, and as soon as I go into combat I turn icons off to make it more challenging for both me and the enemy.

The reason for icons today are many. The most important is to compensate for the lack of real sight. In the sim you can not reqognise enemy types at the same distance as you can in real life, thus icons helps.

However, when close up the icons are more anoying then helping.

In an arena where enemy can have same plane as yourself icons are neccessary. In an axis/allie arena we should have the choice to turn it off.

[Fokker]

Bowser, what I am saying is that the WW2 arena in WB beacame the most popular very fast. Thus most pilots must have liked it more than MA.

There will always be whiners. To make a scenario without whiners is truly impossible. I have some faith in what the majority find to be best.

[Suave1]

Montezuma, it makes you looks stupid when you respond in a thread without reading it . Nobody here is suggesting turning the ma into a ha . Secondly who are these "few luftwaffles" that are scared of pac planes ? And thirdly, who said that there wouldn't be pac planes in an ava arena ? And yes the protocol for base capture in AvA arenas was no different than in the pork arena . The reason why it didn't suck like the pork arenas is because it had historical match ups of contemporary planes in maps resembling actually geography. That is why it appealed to wwII aircraft enthusiast, and also the reason it was unpopular with.. others .

[bowser]

"...Bowser, what I am saying is that the WW2 arena in WB became the most popular very fast. Thus most pilots must have liked it more than MA...".

I was flying WBs at the time of the switch.  It had been planned for a long time, and everyone was looking forward to it.  It was some time I think before people realized the pitfalls.  I won't go into them, you can read about them in any number of threads on AGW.
It's very hard to populate an arena.  The "herd" mentality rules.  People will go will the numbers are.  To say most people are big fans of the WWII arena because that's where most people fly isn't entirely accurate.  Myself and a lot of people flew there because everybody else flew there.  Didn't mean we liked it, and for a lot of us, was the reason we left WBs.

bowser

[Fokker]

Bowser - I was there too - both before and after the switch. To start with they kept both MA and WW2 arena. After a while MA was shutt down. I dont think that would have happened unless the conclusion with the majority was that WW2 was the best.

Those who liked the MA style still had, and still have the combat arena. Today those 2 arenas are the once used in WB. The MA is dead.

I think we should learn a bit of this and see how we can improve things in AH instead off just ruling out experience like this.

I dont believe many left WB for the arena reasons. Those who have left for AH, like you and me, left because AH offered more at the time we left. The day another sim offer more than AH, we will change again. That is how it is.

If we want AH to stay the best sim, we should all do what we can to influence that it evolves and stayes the best. I am sure HiTech, Pyro and the others listen and that they are able to evaluate the different suggestions.

I look at this Gameplay feedback tread as an important tool they have established just for that reason. I dont expect that all my suggestions, or others will be used, but it is important that we give feedback. Constructive feedback.

I am an hardcore online player, who have been online for hours everyday for about 10 years now. I have seen many sims and games, and have a fair idea about what people find fun, challenging and entertaining. And I for sure know that we are always looking for the game that offers the most. Thus we change from time to time.

I am sure HT is aware of this and that he will do what he can to keep AH the best WW2 flight sim there is. To do that he will depend on constructive feedback from the users like us.

I have already ordered my copy of WW2OL, which will be issued in may. Next month. The reason is not to leave AH in the first instance. The reason is to find out if it will offer more. And to follow the development closely.

For the same reason I still have my WB account, and are in there quite often to follow the development of WB3.

[Montezuma]

 

Originally posted by Suave1:
The reason why it didn't suck like the pork arenas is because it had historical match ups of contemporary planes in maps resembling actually geography. That is why it appealed to wwII aircraft enthusiast, and also the reason it was unpopular with.. others .

Exactly what I said, porking landgrab with limited plane sets and a new map.  It was boring.

It also isn't even close to history unless you can recreate the tactical conditions that the planes flew under.  No one has yet figured out how to do that in a persistant melee arena.

In AW I lead over a dozen fighter groups in major scenarios, so I know a little bit about historic match ups.  

[illo]

DB 603 i couldnt sum it up any better  


If people want realism they will want just that.
Gunnery comes way more realistic..situations look like the ones seen in actual ww2 guncams.
Timing your moves needs much more skill. Pilots do more mistakes.


That's what I want.

[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-21-2001).]