Your new gun law idea

[CAP1]

I never said in my post anything about laws. A system for it not to happen is what I was talking about. In your case it works & maybe others should follow your lead.

wellll, yes and no.......
if my brother was shot with one of your stolen guns.....and it was stolen because you keep it in the closet, or under the cushion on the sofa, rather than locked up........you better bet your arse i'm commin after you too.

THAT'S the point here i think.

i keep my archery stuff locked away. well...except for the robinhooded arrows that is. everyone i know(and most of my neighbors have nice little arsenals) keeps their stuff safely locked away.

 just for the record, sam up the street, when he saw someone trying to mug the old lady across the street, had his handgun outta the safe, and caught the kid.....VERY easily, as his wife dialed 911. he held the kid at bay till the pd got there. funny thing is nothing happened in our neighborhood like that beofre....and not since.

[Hornet33]

I wasn't directing that statement to anyones posts in this thread, but just making a general statement regarding our current crop of politicians and anti gun activists and their continued pleas/demands for "reasonable" gun laws in order to "save the children".

I guess I'm just fed up with how and more importantly WHY laws are made these days. Seems that none of them are based on objective facts and hard data anymore but are based on "if's" "could's", "might's", and "possibly's" with the sole purpose of trying to prevent something from happening that really isn't even a problem based on solid facts, but only on perception, fear, or ignorance.

If people are honestly so concerned about preventing childhood deaths, why are they going after one of the least likely causes of childhood deaths, yet the only one that is a Costituntional Right?

I have 2 kids, and I would hate to see either of them seriously injured or God forbid killed, but if my kids had something happend to them is say a car crash, I wouldn't try to outlaw cars, I would want the person responsible held accountable. That was the point I tried to get across earlier. If person A has his Ford car stolen, and person B who stole the car runs over my kid, I'm going after person B because he was the one driving the car. Person A did nothing wrong. Ford did nothing wrong. Person B did do something wrong.

Unfortantly that's not how most people in this country think anymore. They want person A held accountable for "letting" the car get stolen, Ford should be held accountable for making a car that could be stolen, and person B only did what he did because person A and Ford enabled him to do it and he had a bad childhood and is misunderstood and disenfranchised with the current state of society.

Common sense is so far out the window anymore I honestly don't know how anyone lives anymore.

[Shuffler]

I secure my guns in a lockable case... my home, our Trucks and cars.

[Yeager]

I have ZERO problem with requiring new firearms owners to pass a NRA certified safety course.

[CAP1]

I have ZERO problem with requiring new firearms owners to pass a NRA certified safety course.

es, but controlled and administered by the nra.......not the govt

[FLOTSOM]

my original point is basic and simple,

remove all of the laws governing firearms currently on the books. dump them all they are worthless.

make every individual who chooses to own the weapon responsible for learning how to handle it properly and for its reasonable security from theft and/or misuse. (key word being reasonable)

permanently remove from society all those who bring harm to another with a weapon during the commission of a felony.

anyone who cant understand or accept the responsibility of taking all reasonable actions to ensure the secure and safe ownership of their weapons should not own them. if an individual does own one and fails in these responsibilities then they should suffer for the harms caused by their own lazy irresponsibility. if the owner did all that was reasonable to secure their weapons and those weapons were stolen anyways, then the prior owner would be held harmless because he acted in a reasonable and responsible manner.

i don't understand how this is such a point of contention.

FLOTSOM

[LLogann]

Gun laws of New York, nobody carries and it takes months for the permit..................

Crime Rate - HIGH

Texas or Minnesota, everybody got a gun........

Crime Rate - Much lower

Go figure

[lyric1]

wellll, yes and no.......
if my brother was shot with one of your stolen guns.....and it was stolen because you keep it in the closet, or under the cushion on the sofa, rather than locked up........you better bet your arse i'm commin after you too.

THAT'S the point here i think.

i keep my archery stuff locked away. well...except for the robinhooded arrows that is. everyone i know(and most of my neighbors have nice little arsenals) keeps their stuff safely locked away.

 just for the record, sam up the street, when he saw someone trying to mug the old lady across the street, had his handgun outta the safe, and caught the kid.....VERY easily, as his wife dialed 911. he held the kid at bay till the pd got there. funny thing is nothing happened in our neighborhood like that beofre....and not since.

Don't own a gun. I understand what your talking about though.

[Hornet33]

my original point is basic and simple,

remove all of the laws governing firearms currently on the books. dump them all they are worthless.

make every individual who chooses to own the weapon responsible for learning how to handle it properly and for its reasonable security from theft and/or misuse. (key word being reasonable)

permanently remove from society all those who bring harm to another with a weapon during the commission of a felony.

anyone who cant understand or accept the responsibility of taking all reasonable actions to ensure the secure and safe ownership of their weapons should not own them. if an individual does own one and fails in these responsibilities then they should suffer for the harms caused by their own lazy irresponsibility. if the owner did all that was reasonable to secure their weapons and those weapons were stolen anyways, then the prior owner would be held harmless because he acted in a reasonable and responsible manner.

i don't understand how this is such a point of contention.

FLOTSOM

Because telling me I have to keep my weapons in my home in an unusable condition is NOT reasonable. You've said several times that they should be locked in a safe or have trigger locks on them while in the home. That makes them unusable.

You've also said that if I left my house and someone broke in and took them I should be held responsible. Don't I have a REASONABLE expectation that my home will not be broken into, therefor as long as my weapons are in my home with the door locked that they are 100% secure?

See there is where your idea of reasonable and mine differ. I have EVERY REASON to believe my weapons are 100% properly secured as long as they are in MY home with the door locked when I am away. Again it's no different than my truck. When I park my truck and lock the doors I have the reasonable expectation that it will be sitting right where I left it when I return along with the gun under the seat if I'm not carrying it on me for whatever reason. How MY weapons are stored in MY home is of no concern to anyone other than me.

Besides how are you going to prove my weapons weren't properly secured by your standards? All I would have to do is buy a trigger lock for every gun I own. If one gets stollen, I toss the lock before I call the police and tell them, yes it had a trigger lock on it, here's the key for it, and I'm in the clear. As far as the police know I took "reasonable" messures to ensure my weapon couldn't be stollen or used by someone else. If they catch the criminal and he tells them it didn't have one on it, well it's his word against mine, and I wasn't caught with a stolen weapon nor have a criminal history. Who's a jury going to believe?

[FLOTSOM]

Because telling me I have to keep my weapons in my home in an unusable condition is NOT reasonable. You've said several times that they should be locked in a safe or have trigger locks on them while in the home. That makes them unusable.

You've also said that if I left my house and someone broke in and took them I should be held responsible. Don't I have a REASONABLE expectation that my home will not be broken into, therefor as long as my weapons are in my home with the door locked that they are 100% secure?

See there is where your idea of reasonable and mine differ. I have EVERY REASON to believe my weapons are 100% properly secured as long as they are in MY home with the door locked when I am away. Again it's no different than my truck. When I park my truck and lock the doors I have the reasonable expectation that it will be sitting right where I left it when I return along with the gun under the seat if I'm not carrying it on me for whatever reason. How MY weapons are stored in MY home is of no concern to anyone other than me.

Besides how are you going to prove my weapons weren't properly secured by your standards? All I would have to do is buy a trigger lock for every gun I own. If one gets stollen, I toss the lock before I call the police and tell them, yes it had a trigger lock on it, here's the key for it, and I'm in the clear. As far as the police know I took "reasonable" messures to ensure my weapon couldn't be stollen or used by someone else. If they catch the criminal and he tells them it didn't have one on it, well it's his word against mine, and I wasn't caught with a stolen weapon nor have a criminal history. Who's a jury going to believe?

well Hornet ill answer your last question first. if you have ever used a trigger guard or breach lock (of quality) you would understand that to remove these items by force leaves heavy marks on the weapon. especially if the person removing it has no real experience with them. they will in more Case than not damage the weapon long before removing the lock. so unless the weapon showed tooling marks or the person stealing the weapon had a key to your trigger guard or breach lock then your story of "it was there but he removed it" would easily be seen as the lie that it is.

is your vehicle properly secured if you lock the doors but leave the windows open? is your vehicle secure if you lock the doors but leave the keys in the ignition with the motor running? is your home secure if you lock the front door but leave the back door open? or if you leave the windows up?

you keep saying "unusable", well if you didn't catch it before ill say it again. if you are with the weapon or wearing it as a side arm ect then it need not be locked, it is under the security of your direct supervision. if you are not there, if your weapon is at home and you are not, or if you decide to leave it under the seat of your car then what difference is it to you that it is usable? for whose use is it that you wish for it to be ready? the guy that steals your car? the guy that walks into your home and is inside waiting for you or your children to walk inside? or is it for the friends of you children who come over and find them? who? answer that question, who is the gun to be kept ready for if your not there with it?

to be honest you talk like a lawyer and not like anyone who has a history in LE. reasonable expectation? that's just lawyer lingo for "i don't want to be responsible for myself".

doesn't the rest of society have the reasonable expectation that you will act in a responsible manner by securing your weapons when you are not directly supervising them? doesn't society have the reasonable expectations that neither they nor their children will be harmed by the weapons in you CARE CUSTODY an CONTROL?

in today's state of decline doesn't a person have a reasonable expectation that at some point their house will be broken into and everything left in the open will be stolen? that their car will be stolen? that their teen age children or the friends thereof will steal things from their home?

your only real reasonable expectation is that if you allow something to happen by your failure to take reasonable steps to prevent it then it will happen and you should be held responsible for your failure.

we discuss helping to ensure the safety of people without heavy gun control and you counter it with I'm wayward and self and want to do things my way even if it endangers others. that does not sound like any LEO i have ever known.

secure your weapons when they are unattended, nothing is unreasonable about it. those who fail time and again to do so are the greatest cause of concern to those who wish to keep and enjoy their right to bear arms without thousands of laws governing that right.

FLOTSOM

[LLogann]

The words you use are wrong, but I hear what you're saying.  In your home, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  But being broken into is not quite the same.  If that were the case you could take your security system and make it a tax deduction.  Since home invasion is illegal, the courts, as well as society can only hope and pray that it never happens to them. 

You've also said that if I left my house and someone broke in and took them I should be held responsible. Don't I have a REASONABLE expectation that my home will not be broken into, therefor as long as my weapons are in my home with the door locked that they are 100% secure?

And know this... If you are home when your house gets broken into, you decide to shoot the robber and they live...... YOU WILL BE SUED, and you will lose.

The only way to go is this.....

Kill them.  When the police arrive, the first thing out of your mouth "I shot him, he's in the bedroom, he told me he had a gun and he'd kill my wife.  I don't know what happened next, he ran into the room and had his hand in his jacket.  Thought he was pulling out the gun he said he had.  So i shot him."

That will give you an 80%. 

[Tr1gg22]

we've concluded in the last thread that the only gun control would be to ban them outright, as long as they are legal in one form or another, the wrong people will be able to get their hands on them

heck, even they were illegal the wrong people would still be able to get a hold of them (ex: drugs)

Yep the problem would be that the only folks with weapons would be the criminals and law enforcement.. I don't no about all of u but I think I should be able to defend myself against the criminal element...

[CAP1]

Because telling me I have to keep my weapons in my home in an unusable condition is NOT reasonable. You've said several times that they should be locked in a safe or have trigger locks on them while in the home. That makes them unusable. only when you're out.

You've also said that if I left my house and someone broke in and took them I should be held responsible. Don't I have a REASONABLE expectation that my home will not be broken into, therefor as long as my weapons are in my home with the door locked that they are 100% secure?not these days. i live in a relativly safe neighborhood. i've fallen asleep with my garaqge and front door wide open, nothing bad happened. i still keep my archery stuff locked away though. like i mentioned before....put yourself on the other side of the equation.

See there is where your idea of reasonable and mine differ. I have EVERY REASON to believe my weapons are 100% properly secured as long as they are in MY home with the door locked when I am away. Again it's no different than my truck. When I park my truck and lock the doors I have the reasonable expectation that it will be sitting right where I left it when I return along with the gun under the seat if I'm not carrying it on me for whatever reason. How MY weapons are stored in MY home is of no concern to anyone other than me. but your truck was not constructed with intentions of being used as a weapon. the person that steals your truck will do so for parts, or the joy-ride. the person that breakes into your home, and steals your gun will do it with intent of harming someone, or selling it illegally to someone with intentions of harming someone. if they broke into your home, and found that 500# gunsafe, they;re gonna go somewhere else, before you come home and shoot em.

Besides how are you going to prove my weapons weren't properly secured by your standards? All I would have to do is buy a trigger lock for every gun I own. If one gets stollen, I toss the lock before I call the police and tell them, yes it had a trigger lock on it, here's the key for it, and I'm in the clear. As far as the police know I took "reasonable" messures to ensure my weapon couldn't be stollen or used by someone else. If they catch the criminal and he tells them it didn't have one on it, well it's his word against mine, and I wasn't caught with a stolen weapon nor have a criminal history. Who's a jury going to believe?how are trigger locks connected? can they be removed without damaging the gun? i would imagine there'd be some sort of visual evidence of it being removed.

<<S>>

[CAP1]

Yep the problem would be that the only folks with weapons would be the criminals and law enforcement.. I don't no about all of u but I think I should be able to defend myself against the criminal element...

no one has said that we shouldn't be able to own guns in this thread.

[Rich46yo]

wellll, yes and no.......
if my brother was shot with one of your stolen guns.....and it was stolen because you keep it in the closet, or under the cushion on the sofa, rather than locked up........you better bet your arse i'm commin after you too.

Now if someone left their keys in a car, say to pay for their gas, and some felon stole the car, leading Police on a high speed chase that ending up tragically killing your brother?? Would you feel the same way towards the actual owner of the car?

Of course you wouldn't Cap. And no disrespect but the reason you would feel that ways towards the gun owner is because the media has mind screwed you into feeling that way. And not just the media but the entire Liberal charade has convinced many of us, if even only in the subconscious, that guns are evil and/or that people really aren't responsible for their own actions. It is not the fault of the gun owner that some scumbag breaks into his house, steals his property, and then uses the property to harm another.

I'm actually appalled that gun owners, any gun owners, anybody period, would think it was the owners fault. And I'm not easy to "appall" anymore. Especially when its something to do with laws or the system.