A question about the pony

[Steel]

Thias and Larry,
     Granted this is why we fly the planes and play with live ammo. With me in the 109K4 I dont really have much trouble handling the 51D. Getting a gun solution on him is one thing but hitting him with that spud launcher is another. The 51D has a very exploitable weakness thats easy to trap them in. I have fought B4Buster before so I know what he is capable of. Turn the fight into the vertical and its over for the mustang.

Steel

[Thias]

Agent360 and I wanted to test this out so we went to the DA, each taking a few rounds in one plane and then switching. Under those conditions, it really is a difficult fight for the 51 if he doesn't manage to obtain an angle after the merge(or 2nd). He really has to keep the fight quick until he can either gain the position or force an overshoot which he has to be able to follow up on right away. Otherwise the k4 will take over quickly, and in DA conditions, the 51 has no where to go. I beat Agent once while I was in the 51d. That was the only pony victory though there were a few close calls do to snapshots. Agent flies the 51 decently, and he's great in the k4 so I feel it was pretty even pilot wise.

In the MA the pony needs to use alt to keep his speed up and drag the k4 into speed.  We just couldn't do that in the DA with the ground so close. I still don't like the idea of telling a pony driver he's screwed and has no chance. He just has to be very quick to pounce on any mistake of the k4. If the pony manages to saddle up on the k4, even if it's a slow fight, he should be able to hang with it. It's just getting to that point which proved most difficult in a dueling environment.

Of course I also took the d-pony into the furball area and was able to go head to head against everything under the sun. But my plane wasn't really being pushed to any limits there. heh

[Anaxogoras]

I think a 2vs2 fight is much more favorable for the P-51D vs the K4 than a 1vs1 fight.  Some good pilots should run a match like that sometime and film it.

[SectorNine50]

More like the zoom/climb and E-retention allow constant bnz, but yeah, true. Of course, this is also true of a pair of F4Us, a pair of Jugs, a pair of 190s, etc.

While true, I don't see this happen often, and I don't have a good reason as to why...

What's the problem here? Our AHII 109s don't get stiff controls until you pass 400mph IAS. 400mph IAS is way fast, especially at a little higher altitude. (Galland would have given his right nut for 109s that handle like the ones in AHII IMO.  ) Bnz was a fairly standard tactic for the Germans from the Spanish Civil war onward.

I'm not saying it's not possible for 109's to do it, but I find it more difficult since I actually have to make sure to pull out if the con starts diving away.  I just tend to see more use of the 109's powerplant than BnZ in-game.

The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior?  Oh well.

Yeah on WEP it's something like 4600fpm, and German WEP lasts days, but I still don't feel all that threatened by 190's in the Pony, even when they are above me.  But like I said before, everything I've stated here has been based on in-game experiences I've had.

Fixed! 

Well, no, not what I meant.  I wasn't saying 2 v 1 per say, but rather a low group of cons with 2 *smart* Pony's above them.  However, being ganged is no fun in any plane...

BTW, do you happen to have much time in the P-47 D-11?

No, I don't.  I have flown it a few times before, fun little fighter, never really kept my attention long though.

[iTunes]

Please don't take this the wrong way some of you pony drivers   but I will say this much, Anytime I come accross a pony when flying the 109, I always feel more confident about the outcome than when faced with a spit.
I find that when I engage a well flown pony then I'm in for a good fight, eventually the fight slows down or gets low and that is usually deadly for the P51, on the flip side though, a pony or even a pair working together and keeping their speed up is a different story altogether. Seems to be a great plane when the speed is there, but when that goes.......

[Steel]

Itunes,

That kinda comparing apples to oranges there.

[iTunes]

My post probably didn't  say what I really mean't to say (sounds like I'm chatting to the wife with that one )
Basically- slow pony= dead, pony with speed or working in pairs= much more difficult, in other words, fly it like it was intended and it comes into it's own.

[Steel]

iTunes,
   Ahhhh  I see where your coming from. In general I would agree most low/slow 51's are dead meat. I am one to think a slow poni is dangerous in a small way. I cant tell you how many Spits got lazy and paid for it. Perhaps this is because I fly it so much and know what its capable of. Most dont know how to equalize E out and avoid getting underneath the high con.

Steel

[BnZs]

No, I don't.  I have flown it a few times before, fun little fighter, never really kept my attention long though.

I asked because every time I fly it, I think, "Whoa, this thing TURNS". Of course it is not up to Spit-Corsair standards, but still, when I imagine the P-47 D-11's turning abilities mated with the P-51's energy properties, I think, "uber".

Frankly I think the D-11 gives us a good idea of what the Pony *should* be able to do in a turnfight. But of course that opinion is the source of much turmoil and controversy. 

[Steve]

iTunes,
   . Perhaps this is because I fly it so much and know what its capable of. Most dont know how to equalize E out and avoid getting underneath the high con.

Steel

Hmmm. I've never heard of you. You fly in an arena other than late war mostly?

[Bronk]

You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.

OT
Yet Ack Ack isn't the one who has been PNGed.... strange ehhh?

[Steel]

Steve,
    We fought in the DA with 51Bvs51D when I was using the handle Race. I have never really spent much time in LW at all. Mostly EW/MW against the horde and alot of DA.

<S>

[iTunes]

Steve,
    We fought in the DA with 51Bvs51D when I was using the handle Race. I have never really spent much time in LW at all. Mostly EW/MW against the horde and alot of DA.

<S>

A wise choice sir, I'll be in the AvA for a while as the the MA is descending into "Duke Nukem" at a rapid pace.

[BnZs]

OT
Yet Ack Ack isn't the one who has been PNGed.... strange ehhh?

AA is more cautious than me about who he pisses off...I got png'ed for a sarcastic signature about the no political discussion policy in the O'club. No curse words, no lies, no references to people's ancestors. What I said was ten times tamer than the poison pen stuff I see guys trading on this BBS as a regular procedure.

[SectorNine50]

I asked because every time I fly it, I think, "Whoa, this thing TURNS". Of course it is not up to Spit-Corsair standards, but still, when I imagine the P-47 D-11's turning abilities mated with the P-51's energy properties, I think, "uber".

Frankly I think the D-11 gives us a good idea of what the Pony *should* be able to do in a turnfight. But of course that opinion is the source of much turmoil and controversy. 

Ah, I gotcha.

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?