Author Topic: Dueling: What shots do you take and what shots do you hold off on?  (Read 5442 times)

Offline BlauK

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I think only cowards shoot from behind. True duelists shoot face to face so that they both have an equal chance   :devil


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Offline Lusche

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I think only cowards shoot from behind. True duelists shoot face to face so that they both have an equal chance   :devil

Exactly. That's why real men call the Ho the "John Wayne Merge"  :)
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 01:24:37 PM »
 :rofl
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Offline whiteman

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What shots do you take and what shots do you hold off
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 02:01:58 PM »
HO on the first merge is the only one I won't take. I try to avoid HO's completely but some times I end up avoiding it and giving up a free shot for the other guy.

Offline grizz441

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 03:22:19 PM »
There are a number of people I've dueled where we've elected not to take nose-to-nose shots.  It's a matter of choice to have that stipulation or not.  Many times that is agreed to at the 2nd merge when both are staring each other in the face and neither shoots  :lol  But you got to be nose-to-nose.  If I come nose on to find a deflection shot I'm shooting (if they're very close to nose on I'll decline as an allowance for lag).  If they come nose on and break into their next turn hundreds of yards out, I'm shooting.  That's taking advantage trying to pre-turn, which means I'll take advantage of any shot it leaves. 

I don't buy the idea of "I 'could' have pulled into the HO, therefore don't shoot me" idea at all.  Maybe you could have, but you didn't.  So either avoid leaving the shot more cleanly, or come nose on.  That's just my take on the general subject.

This was my perspective exactly.  He needed to pull much closer to the HO than he did. 

Shane the reason I don't grasp your explanation is because it's devoid of reason.  Hell, you could probably disprove gravity if you put your mind to it.   :D

Offline Shane

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 03:55:06 PM »
This was my perspective exactly.  He needed to pull much closer to the HO than he did. 

Shane the reason I don't grasp your explanation is because it's devoid of reason.  Hell, you could probably disprove gravity if you put your mind to it.   :D

Yes, I *could* continue pulling into you (did at times, narrowly missing collisions - the 2nd film I posted shows just clearly how close we came... toss in internet variables and i'd rather err on side of caution in a friendly duel).  <--- read this again.

*Could.*   For the types of engagements we were doing (you specifically asked for an la7-38 matchup), I thought it was seeing how you could do... like I said the shots I gave you are all on myself.  It was your choice to pull the trigger, no biggie. I never asked you directly *not* to take the shot, but rather inferred that maybe you can try holding them for continued flying work.  You're all about the relatively quick kill, pulling way hard G's at the merge - you saw how easy it was for me to e-fight rope you if I stayed fast.... but no, wasn't about "winning" per se.  It evolved into it near the end, tho'...

So there's really no point in this... I already said "<meh> you took a 'valid' shot."  Just as long as you *know* they were gimmes.  Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense <shrug>.  If we ever duel again, it'll be pre-vis alt-capped, anything goes except HO on the merge. Take whatever shots you want.. or not...  :aok


<edit> I had no plm with posting the first film (altho it wasn't the best represntation of the shot)... the last two films he posted, were... huh?  Did you not see the same shot he tried on me that occurred 45 mins before those last 3 fights? I stopped holding shots (didn't shoot on the merge did I?) and took the ones presented.  Seems to me, posting those last 2 films are nothing more than a thinly disguised whine because I took a shot he didn't think I would.... ironic, no?  In retrospect, I suppose I could have "quit" after the first 2 questionable (my perspective) shots.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 04:24:12 PM by Shane »
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Offline moot

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Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2008, 04:20:11 PM »
If I'm in the DA, I'll rarely take HO shots after the 1st merge.  
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Offline grizz441

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2008, 04:38:40 PM »

So there's really no point in this... I already said "<meh> you took a 'valid' shot."  Just as long as you *know* they were gimmes.  Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense <shrug>.  If we ever duel again, it'll be pre-vis alt-capped, anything goes except HO on the merge. Take whatever shots you want.. or not...  :aok

<edit> I had no plm with posting the first film (altho it wasn't the best represntation of the shot)... the last two films he posted, were... huh?  Did you not see the same shot he tried on me that occurred 45 mins before those last 3 fights? I stopped holding shots (didn't shoot on the merge did I?) and took the ones presented.  Seems to me, posting those last 2 films are nothing more than a thinly disguised whine because I took a shot he didn't think I would.... ironic, no?

Shane I've honestly never dueled anybody before that makes excuses like you.  It's not even fun.  Every kill I earned on you, you explained to me why it was invalid.  I love a challenge and when I fight good enough to beat a vet like you, you just take it away from me.  Boy that's fun.  Or if I take a questionable shot in your eyes, you have to one up me in the next fight and take a blatantly invalid shot to *prove a point*.  Or if I put your plane on fire and disengage, you have to one up me by oil leaking my plane and disengaging to *prove a point*. Or if I rope you in the middle of a fight, next fight you have to come blazing in your LA7 at 430 and just rocket man up at the engagement to rope me to *prove a point*.  I've never dueled anyone so spiteful and so full of himself.  You are a great stick, it'd just be nice if you showed some more class and actually made it a friendly duel set.  Ever heard of biting your tongue and just saying nice kill?  I'd say the best pilots I've fought against besides you are Dedalos, Texture, and BatfinkV, and all 3 of those guys are very friendly and will never grumble and stick it to me.  When I earn a kill on them, they are very gracious.  I like friendly duels.  It's a great way to get to know someone and I've met some real friends that way.  There's no point to duel someone if it's going to be like this.  Probably won't duel you again Shane, which is a shame because you are such a good stick and I get so much out of it.  It's just not worth it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 04:53:21 PM by grizz441 »

Offline Badboy

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2008, 05:42:18 PM »
Then a shot I took started an argument/debate. 

First film posted in this thread shows a good clean kill.

Your opponent missed two shots of his own, was roped, gave up his six and was then killed during a badly timed reversal attempt.

It doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

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Offline Shane

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 06:02:18 PM »
Shane I've honestly never dueled anybody before that makes excuses like you.  It's not even fun.  Every kill I earned on you, you explained to me why it was invalid.  I love a challenge and when I fight good enough to beat a vet like you, you just take it away from me.  Boy that's fun.  Or if I take a questionable shot in your eyes, you have to one up me in the next fight and take a blatantly invalid shot to *prove a point*.  Or if I put your plane on fire and disengage, you have to one up me by oil leaking my plane and disengaging to *prove a point*. Or if I rope you in the middle of a fight, next fight you have to come blazing in your LA7 at 430 and just rocket man up at the engagement to rope me to *prove a point*.  I've never dueled anyone so spiteful and so full of himself.  You are a great stick, it'd just be nice if you showed some more class and actually made it a friendly duel set.  Ever heard of biting your tongue and just saying nice kill?  I'd say the best pilots I've fought against besides you are Dedalos, Texture, and BatfinkV, and all 3 of those guys are very friendly and will never grumble and stick it to me.  When I earn a kill on them, they are very gracious.  I like friendly duels.  It's a great way to get to know someone and I've met some real friends that way.  There's no point to duel someone if it's going to be like this.  Probably won't duel you again Shane, which is a shame because you are such a good stick and I get so much out of it.  It's just not worth it.

Can't speak for Texture, but bat and ded would probably hold that shot working for a cleaner kill, especially after the first several times it was remarked on and why it was being done.  But no... you want to grab some glory by taking me on in *my* ride vs a ride you were "just starting to learn."  All I see you being is a one-trick pony. Not seeing you learn anything. 

Let's see... u flamed me then chose to disenage....  i smoke you in return and ask if  should let your engine smoke out? I did reverse, tho, right?  You rope me - no biggie, so I make full use of the LA7's potential and do the same to you.  And you call me spiteful for *returning* the favor?  Excuse me while I go reset my irony meter.

And you have the gall to whine about some perceived HO after a clean merge.. I never implicitly agreed to anything, whatsoever beyond the normal rules.  Did we both hold some shots? Sure... Did you take as many questionable vs me as I did vs you? Probably.

All I see you doing here now is trying to show you somehow owned me, even tho I explicitily told you after the first few those were gimmes to you. You chose to take that shot repeatedly.  <shrug, i've already stated, again repeatedly, that they're on me for giving them to you.  I said that in-game and here numerous times. I never said anything negative about you taking them. What part of "I gave you those shots - my bad for expecting a lilttle more of you" are you having problems with?

Why are you persisting in this? The others weren't there or party to what all occurred that night. This should have remained bewteen the two of us, but you wanted to make it public... and I *thought* this thread was only to get a "general consensus" on the shot? 

Looks like you lied to me.   You've just lost any respect I had for you.

<mutter, final edit>  I believe over the course of the evening you received quite a few gk/gs when you made a better kill than the ones we're discussing here.  Trying to make it sound like I was totally ungracious, huh? Go re-read the first 4 paragraphs of my original post in this thread. Then re-read the last sentence above this edit. And you're right, we won't waste any more time with each other.

Here's the chat buffer screenies (.jpgs) after the very last fight of the night when you "quit."

http://www.speedyshare.com/522627766.html
http://www.speedyshare.com/245161177.html
http://www.speedyshare.com/417665920.html
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:46:22 PM by Shane »
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Offline moot

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling: What shots do you tak
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 06:06:15 PM »
1 correction. I think it was Batfink that Ded got pretty pissed by taking HO shots in duels. And he wasnt what youd call gracious about it.. :P
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Offline humble

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 06:14:22 PM »
The other night I saw snaphook HO me..... I'm sure it just looked like it on my end... but I still gave him flack over it. I thought it was funny........... Lag can fool you a lot of the time. Just takes a second to change perspective.

You know me...i just hose anything and everything then let god sort out it I "won" and rant and rave over 200 if I didnt....this while #@#$ over <S>'s :D

1st and foremost its a matter of intent and interpretation. The better the sticks involved the greater the potential for an issue IMO. In a friendly duel (Bat and I for example) anything beyond the 3/9 line is pretty much verbotten with the occasional exception of really sweet canopy shots acquired by super sweet ACM...what I mean is that the typical "I'm around 1st" FQ canopy job is a mutual pass. Now if I'm in a true duel and I'm forcing a 2 circle fight thats a very valid shot...especially in the MA.

I think this is a true gray area, its a pilots responsibility to manage the fight. A FQ shot is perfectly "legal" and often the advantage is passed when the shot is passed. That being said at its truest form a 3/9 line presents the greatest challenge....

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Offline grizz441

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2008, 06:44:45 PM »

Looks like you lied to me.   You've just lost any respect I had for you.



No I wasn't going to get into it until you started posting outlandish replies.  It's okay if you have zero respect for me Shane.  I still have the utmost respect for your flying ability.  I just think you need to conduct yourself with more class.  And no, you gave me zero credit all night,  Typing to me "meh, good kill, but you were dead four times before that on shots I held off on, so it really doesn't count" isn't being gracious.  Something you need to work on.

<edit> And another thing, I had no intention of grabbing glory by taking you on in your ride.  I wanted a challenge in my P38 plain and simple.  La7 vs P38J is a very fun diverse yet equal matchup.  You beat me more than I beat you last night no question.  You are a better stick than me, no question.  This isn't about that, I've taken on Dedalos in his ride and got my bellybutton handed to me 4 out of 5 times.  It's about wanting to fight the best to try to get better, AND HAVE FUN DOING IT, nothing more.  Last night could have been a memorable dueling experience for me.  You tainted it badly though.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:54:21 PM by grizz441 »

Offline Shane

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Re: The Ethics of Dueling:
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2008, 06:54:31 PM »
No I wasn't going to get into it until you started posting outlandish replies.  It's okay if you have zero respect for me Shane.  I still have the utmost respect for your flying ability.  I just think you need to conduct yourself with more class.  And no, you gave me zero credit all night,  Typing to me "meh, good kill, but you were dead four times before that on shots I held off on, so it really doesn't count" isn't being gracious.  Something you need to work on.

You started it with posting the last 2 fights.  They are red herrings.  I gave you plenty of credit.  Why are you still trying to make it seem like it wasn't the case? I've been nothign less than consistent - where are you getting "outlandish replies?"  I've been consistent with my replies from the onset. I guess you had already determined them to be "outlandish" before you decided to post... goes back to my loss of respect for your true motive in posting this thread. 


Let me make it real simple for you.

1. You took a valid shot. I've said from the very beginning they were all on me, i.e. "my fault."
2. I explained *why* you were repeatedly being *given* the same shot.
3. You continue to take the shot when I *gave* it to you (which resulted in most of your kills on me actually.)
4. You lied about your motivation for wanting a "consensous" - meaning you really wanted affirmation from the peanut gallery that you did indeed own me thru your "superior" acm.
5. You keep trying to make me look like I was a total ass.

ZERO RESPECT.  <click>




« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:01:37 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.