Dueling: What shots do you take and what shots do you hold off on?

[grizz441]

So me and Shane just dueled for a couple hours, my P38J vs his La7.  We had some good fights, going both ways for a while.  Then a shot I took started an argument/debate.  I took a shot that he deemed unfair and I of course thought it was clean.  I'm sure this is a typical argument that may arise in the DA when emotions get involved.  Anyways, I think it was clean but I wanted to post the film to get some veteran's input who have a lot of dueling experience.  Shane said he pulled this move to avoid a RAM while I say he did it to try to gain an angles edge on me by giving me a bait shot that if I miss, he has me.  I did ram Shane once in the 2 hour period which was entirely my fault which he thought proved his point and justified his need to avoid the dangerous head on with "Grizz the Rammer".  Well without further a due, here is the short film.  Is the shot clean or should it be passed on?

http://www.speedyshare.com/996200730.html

Also, a picture of the initial shots being fired before he twists his plane upward.

[Roscoroo]

just from the pic it looks like a bait shot from the ho and Shane flew into it ... if its from the Initial merge then its not legal ...  if other wise then it is or if its a deflection type shot ("honest Lev it was a deflection shot " as we bolth have our rudders kicked thru the floor LOL)  its perfectly legal in Dueling .

[grizz441]

Here is a film of the next fight of Shane getting his revenge for my cheap shot.  Is this the same shot that I took?

http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html

Then...

Here is the very next fight where Shane decided to shoot me head on again.  I quit after this fight.  Again I ask, is this the same shot that I took?

http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html

(All films are very short, don't be bashful to download)

[Guppy35]

The good thing about Shane is he'll tell you what he thinks no matter what.  The second you start to take it personal, you lose the battle.  I can't remember how many times it was my fault when I've run into Shane in the arenas whether it be a "HO" shot or a ram.  I just keep smiling as I know he's probably doing the same.  And I do consider Shane one of the 'good guys' in the game, even if he thinks my flying sucks along with my shooting.

That being said, it's always going to be a toughie with any shot that's front quarter.  How it looks to you and how it looks to him might just be two different things.

That long brawl you and I had 38G to 38J, neither of us took those shots even though there were opportunities.  It seemed like the cut off point for shots in that fight were top view or rear quarter.  Naturally we ended up colliding as no one took the nose on shot.

Did you fight it fair, and did the shot look legit to you.  I'm on the wrong computer to watch the film so I can't comment on that

[SkyTiger]

To me you had good angle and it was a good shot. What's the big deal? In my opinion that second video of the LA killing the 38 was more of a HO.

[Shane]

Let me state I've told grizz I was rolling out of the way (him coming over the top, while i'm still going up usually, altho a bit less verucal in that particular film) to avoid the potential for the RAM/(ho). I never implied Grizz *was* a rammer. I do that in duels because I don't want to risk having a fight mucked up by collisions.

Even the film shows I had the speed to pull into him - I could, and did hold my nose into him at times, some we missed (very close) and one we didn't.  I'm sure someone can do the math showing our closure rates and how much reaction time between holding it up or rolling to avoid the potential collision.

Bear in mind these aren't slow rolling scissors with crossing shots, but rather a vertical e/stall fight.

I'm not saying the shot isn't valid, I repeatedly gave it to him, knowing he was going to probably shoot (and he did), even after I had mentioned it several times.  It's a shot *I* would hold on normally in a friendly duel.

<didn't save the collision film>.  nor any of the ones you nailed me with that shot.. except for this one. (watch in full screen with recorded views/trails). The film was named right when I saved it, lol.

http://www.speedyshare.com/236569165.html

It's the 2nd engagement after SERaider.  The merge starts around 2:00. Your first shot came at 2:38, which was a valid one.  The next oppt'y came at 3:00 in which I was held it up and you rolled out, not taking the shot, and missing a potential collision.

At 3:21 you see me make the decision to start rolling out with 400yds of separation with our respective speeds being 172 (me) and 218(you) . Could I have continued nosing into you instead?  Sure, but we'd be risking another potential collision ala 3:00.

meh... grizz i'll just hold my nose up or pull into you and we'll see how the collisions play out since i know we won't fire.  let's hope we'll be able to roll out with slower speeds and not clip something.  

it was still fun tho'

let's see how the clued peanut gallery plays out in this...  

<edit: Dunno why you posted the last 2 films? Thought you merely wanted an opinion on the specific shot we were discussing? (The 1st film you posted was actually right before the 2nd and 3rd ones - and these 3 duels/films were at the tail end of quite a few duels as you mentioned.)  Some kind of strawman to bolster your stance?  By that point  you knew full well at that point after the merge any shot was valid, even moreso after having been on the receiving end of those gimmes I gave you by rolling out over the course of the evening.>

[grizz441]

<edit: dunno why you posted the last 2 films? By that point you knew full well after the merge any shot was valid, after having been on the receiving end of those gimmes I gave you by rolling out.>

I didn't remember a rule change, all I remember was you saying something to the extent of you were going to "widen up your shot selection" since I obviously was doing the same.  Well, those are the shots you took, the last one you took that ended the dueling match was as illegal as they come IMO.

Why are the two extremes to you, avoiding a head on by an entire front screen or having your gun sights right on my plane for the ram?  If you could finish off a turn and get your gunsight right next to (Or somewhat next to) my plane I wouldn't fire and we wouldn't collide.  I don't feel like your argument holds any ground.  Not going to argue in this thread, so we'll let the peanut gallery voice their input on the subject matter. 

[Shane]

Let's toss out the red herring first. The "last match - film 3, the very last one of the evening?"  Illegal? <eh?> We merged cold... I took whatever shot presented itself afterwards. HO? Front Quarter? Doesn't matter, according to standardized rules we merged clean and it was on.  

Back to the original topic... you are failing to grasp the same point i've repeated over and over... I do not want to risk a collision when I know full well I can continue turning into you. Nothing makes a good fight go... plop... like a collision.  This isn't the MA, right? Those shots I gave you, weren't you outflying me, they were gimmes. After stating that repeatedly, *you* still chose to take the shot.  And like I said, no problem, with you I'll widen my shot selection, since it's all about the kill and not about the flying...   right?  Or we can stick with standardized rules, which are still all about the kill, after the merge, of course.  Or... ?? 

This issue really should never have been brought here because you'll find proponents on both sides. What matters was what we agreed on.. my gimmes are all on my own shoulders and I've told you as much. You took what you deemed a valid shot. And like I showed you, going by the standard rules of cold merge then anything goes, I pretty much beat you because *I* chose to take those shots, taking advantage of you doing something I know you'd not do - take the "HO-ish" post-merge shot... one that I don't normally take either.

I repeatedly ask by inference for you to lay off a certain shot and explain why. You don't. So at the end I flip the tables and give you a shot I know you don't like/take.

See the irony here? 

Want more?  2:34 - 2:40... http://www.speedyshare.com/863452359.html   Think I had the speed to pull thru and rake your cockpit (HO-ish?), risking a collision as well (I rolled away)?  You apparently thought you could - front quarter/ho? The shot I gave you there was neither *after* I rolled. It could easily have been a collision if I hadn't rolled, and it almost was (think I want to risk that all the time?) Itchy trigger there, huh? Looks like you weren't gonna hold fire no matter what.  The irony? This was at least 45 minutes before the secondary films/commentary you posted above.

[BnZs]

Never let a nasty Federalist live, even if he pulls that lame "shoot a crow out of a tree behind you" thing and then expects you not to ventilate him.

[Steel]

One thing many dont consider is perspective....

Net lag can change both pilots view of things.

[NoBaddy]

Nice thing about duels is that you can agree on what shots are acceptable..and what shots aren't.

Personally, I've always been for the cold merge then anything goes...unless agreed upon in advance.

[Shuffler]

The other night I saw snaphook HO me..... I'm sure it just looked like it on my end... but I still gave him flack over it. I thought it was funny........... Lag can fool you a lot of the time. Just takes a second to change perspective.

[Kazaa]

Shane in the Blue corner, Grizz in the Red.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E

[FlyinFin]

Shane in the Blue corner, Grizz in the Red.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E

lol but you have it backwards.....



I think your collision excuse is as lame as it comes.
Nice shots Griz you know your whoppinass when ya force the guy to HO ya. 
AND a merge means merge not pull up in front of me before the merge to try and get an advantage.
Additionally just because your plane can u turn in a blink off the eye, and then say "you ho'ed me"  you turned into him not he didn't avoid you. poor plane management.
"I know I'll just fly into the guys airspace and claim he rammed me" stupid.

You lose IMHO Opps. Get a real plane

I agree NB not over 5k cold merge game on... except no full frontal hose down that you use in the fight ! be nice if the ho was just "coaded" out.
But....It might be to much like another game.

[Murdr]

There are a number of people I've dueled where we've elected not to take nose-to-nose shots.  It's a matter of choice to have that stipulation or not.  Many times that is agreed to at the 2nd merge when both are staring each other in the face and neither shoots    But you got to be nose-to-nose.  If I come nose on to find a deflection shot I'm shooting (if they're very close to nose on I'll decline as an allowance for lag).  If they come nose on and break into their next turn hundreds of yards out, I'm shooting.  That's taking advantage trying to pre-turn, which means I'll take advantage of any shot it leaves.  

I don't buy the idea of "I 'could' have pulled into the HO, therefore don't shoot me" idea at all.  Maybe you could have, but you didn't.  So either avoid leaving the shot more cleanly, or come nose on.  That's just my take on the general subject.