Author Topic: Norwegin Aces  (Read 15075 times)

Offline Bronk

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #255 on: December 27, 2008, 07:11:32 PM »
I am off to bed to happily surrender to Germany  :D



Norwegian woman?  :huh
Just can't wait to release your inner collaborationist.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 07:29:49 PM by Bronk »
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Offline E25280

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #256 on: December 27, 2008, 07:12:05 PM »
- Rommels thoughts: "Rommel was largely contemptuous of both the U.S. equipment and fighting ability and considered them a non-threat" (Wiki)
That may have been his opinion before the battle.  But this directly contradicts it:

"I have never seen any forces so inept at first as Americans in battle--or anyone who learned the hard lessons more quickly once the chips were down."
Erwin Rommel, The Rommel Papers, ed. B. H. Liddell Hart, 15th ed. (New York: Dacapo Press, 1953), 521

Doesn't sound like contempt to me.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #257 on: December 27, 2008, 07:27:56 PM »
That may have been his opinion before the battle.  But this directly contradicts it:

"I have never seen any forces so inept at first as Americans in battle--or anyone who learned the hard lessons more quickly once the chips were down."
Erwin Rommel, The Rommel Papers, ed. B. H. Liddell Hart, 15th ed. (New York: Dacapo Press, 1953), 521

Doesn't sound like contempt to me.

You just don't know true contempt when you see it.  :uhoh







 :D
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #258 on: December 27, 2008, 07:31:36 PM »
I keep wondering why this has been ignored. (Credit to Diablo for finding it.)

http://www.norway.org/history/after1814/ww2/ww2.htm

Quote
Norway's declaration of neutrality was of little significance. On 9 April 1940, German forces attacked Norway. After an intense two-month struggle, and despite military assistance from Great Britain and France, Norway had no choice but to surrender.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #259 on: December 27, 2008, 07:52:30 PM »
Hangtime, tsk tsk. First response:
Now, where to begin? (I actually enjoy this)...hmm, yes:
"You missed a small point.... on December 6, 1941 (Finland’s Independence Day) England declared war on Finland"
And? I am actually surprized it wasn't sooner, since by Barbarossa started months earlier making the USSR allies in a whiff, and Finland saddled on with the Axis mighty swiftly. (Maybe it was clever, otherwise they'd have been at war with Germany...perhaps). So, the UK started a lot of operations against the Finnish, right?

Nope. While declarations of war were tendered to shut stalin up, no western nation actually engaged finnish troops.

Oh, and Norway did NOT surrender, and 900 is....900. More than the Spartans  :t

Ahh.. but compared to 'neutra'l swedens 8,700, the true 'commitment' is revealed.


As for under bed, I have to get INTO the bed with a German tonight, - my wife  :rock

I admire your determined 'resistance'.  :D

Second response:
Kasserine. Nice to know you're familiar with it, but I'll allow myself to fill in some...parts, since the Norwegians are under fire for buckling without surrender after 6 weeks of fighting the Germans.

Norway surrendered.

- 3 days is...not fighting for 6 weeks.

enh? The germans controlled the battle for 3 days.. then they didn't. We didn't stop fighting.. we just stopped losing ground. The Norwegians never controlled the battle.. for 6 weeks. Then they surrendered their country. The Germans captured some trucks, food and fuel from us.. in Norway, they got the whole enchilada.

- by those 3 days the US who were not taken by a surprize attack by one who was not an enemy a day before retreated as far as they could get.

Enh? not sure of the thought being communicated here.. however, in the absence of coherent upper echelon command, field commanders in key units displayed remarkable leadership, re-established local command and control, reformed a defensive line and stopped the German advance. Cold.

- They had ample opportunity to know what they were up against, unlike the Norse.

Oh, horsepucky. After Czech and Polish moves, every nation in Europe mobilized. Except Norway. Even when Denmark was squished.. the Norse remained complacent. It's not like they had no idea what was coming, especially with Denmark getting it first.

- The German attack started, what on the 19th of feb, and the retreat was quite a bit for 2 days. Axis attack would be more correct, since a major Italian force was applied.

Again.. the Axis enjoyed success for 3 days.. then their world turned to crap in Africa. In Norway they enjoyed 6 weeks of victory. Then a surrender celebration. Not theirs, btw. 

- The first allied success was at Thala when the BRITISH artillery denied the Axis the oporunity of cutting off the US 9th infantry.

enh? Look, Kasserine demonstrated to Eisenhower that American Troops under British and French command was not going to work.. the early Axis success at Kasserine was NOT against Americans troops.. the French were routed TWICE. The Brit commander of the American troops after that wound up utterly unable to consolidate the Brit French & American forces.. and the American 9th Infantry was summoned to the front to bolster the crushed french and reeling brit defenses. Which they did very well.

Rommel was ordered to attack Le Kef - some 60 miles north of the Kasserine Pass. To attack Le Kef, he had to move his troops through the pass. General Alexander was given the command of Anderson's 1st Army and Montgomery's 8th Army. He was staggered at the confusion he saw in all the areas that the Allies controlled - he simply ordered that there would be no withdrawal from any positions.

On February 18th, there was little activity on the front and this allowed the Allies to tighten up their defenses. The arrival of the 9th Artillery Division did a lot to bolster morale - it had traveled 735 miles in four days. Between February 19th and 22nd, Rommel tried to reach his target - Le Kef. However, he realized that he did not have the means to launch a meaningful attack and on the 22nd February Rommel ordered that the attack be called off. His primary problem was the constant lack of supplies - men had been withdrawn from North Africa to fight in the Russian campaign - something that angered the 'Desert Fox'. He withdrew from the Kasserine Pass unbeknown to the Allies who failed to follow up his retreat. By February 25th, the Kasserine Pass was in the hands of the Allies and the Germans had been pushed back to the Eastern Dorsale.


- Thala was held with an amalgam of British, US and FRENCH forces, thereby enabling the application of using the US arty of...48 guns. They did fine. In the following day, the British were in the frontline. The Germans had to submit to the combined arty and withdraw.

Yep that little detachment of the 9th provided the Hammer necessary to stop the attack into the rear areas.. and their resolve became the rally point for the panicked French and Brit units.

- Another attack (Sbiba) was stopped by the Brits.

because they were there.

- Rommels thoughts: "Rommel was largely contemptuous of both the U.S. equipment and fighting ability and considered them a non-threat"

Yup. wasn't Rommels first mistake.. or his last.

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Offline Angus

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #260 on: December 28, 2008, 06:04:00 AM »
Right...here goes:
"Oh, horsepucky. After Czech and Polish moves, every nation in Europe mobilized. Except Norway. Even when Denmark was squished.. the Norse remained complacent. It's not like they had no idea what was coming, especially with Denmark getting it first."

Denmark was not taken before, it just fell immediately. The operations commenced at the same hour. The invasion fleet to Norway left at different dates, for the plan was to seize all major ports and airfields simultaniously. That includes all major towns. Well, it worked. Now that leaves a position unique, - all key points captured immediately and supplies rolling in.
Lessons from land-warfare with the Germans? Only from the Poles, the Czech were annexed, and as I corrected, Denmark was simultaniously. (The Danish plot was brilliant in an evil way, for the Germans were holding a meeting with the Danish authorities WHILE the troops were pouring in).
Nice try though Hangie...
Now the Americans on the other hand were working with the British and the French, who both had been in action against the Axis, the British now in their 3rd year. Seems there was a language problem.
There was a long ongoing dispute between Churchill and US commanders who wanted to try to invade mainland Europe as soon as 1942. Churchill correctly belived that the US commanders didn't have a clue about what they were talking, and they needed to be blooded in a smaller deal for learnings. That happened in N-Africa, and definately proved him right.
More:
"Look, Kasserine demonstrated to Eisenhower that American Troops under British and French command was not going to work.. the early Axis success at Kasserine was NOT against Americans troops.. the French were routed TWICE. The Brit commander of the American troops after that wound up utterly unable to consolidate the Brit French & American forces.. and the American 9th Infantry was summoned to the front to bolster the crushed french and reeling brit defenses. Which they did very well."
I would like to see more on this, for everything I look up has it the other way around. It was the British who stopped the 9th from being cut off, and the original arty barrage was British, because they were there. The whole, in short the US would have had a worse day alone. The aftermath, well:
"While complete disaster had been averted, the Battle of Kasserine Pass was a humiliating defeat for US forces. Their first major clash with the Germans, the battle showed an enemy superiority in experience and equipment as well as exposed several flaws in the American command structure and doctrine. After the fight, Rommel dismissed American troops as ineffective and felt they did offer a threat to his command."
Rommel later had to eat his words. Later.
Now a little more of the command editing in the aftermath...General Alexander said to the US, "You surely have better men than that". So the US released their commander, and better men filled the gap. Bradley for instance :aok

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Offline Hangtime

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #261 on: December 28, 2008, 08:06:19 PM »
well.. not quite sure how Kasserine refects on Norwegian failure to defend itself.. especially since the american losses alone there were over 6,000.. and we didn't capitulate africa, america or the war as a result. It was for sure a clear indicator that American Troops would not tolerate foreign command, that command and control left to rear echelon french and brit generals was a recipe for disaster. When the 9th's artillery and a regimental combat team, under new orders, arrived after a 750 mile dash from the coast, the situation changed dramatically

For a detailed history of the 9th's participation see:

http://www.lonesentry.com/gi_stories_booklets/9thinfantry/index.html

As to the early african battle overview and strategy, in February 1943, Kasserine Pass became the focal point in the North African campaign. The Axis powers planned to use the Kasserine Pass to prevent General Dwight Eisenhower from concentrating his forces against Tunis.

Fighting around the Kasserine Pass began in December 1942 when the German commander in Tunisia, Jürgen von Arnim of the German V Panzer Army, launched an attack west in an effort to link up with Rommel's army which was withdrawing from Libya to southern Tunisia. Arnim wanted to control the Eastern Dorsale - a range of mountains that extends south from Tunis. By doing this he would also control the mountain passes that controlled most movement through the Eastern Dorsale. If Arnim succeeded in doing this, he would push Eisenhower into using passes, such as the one at Kasserine, which were further south. This would push Eisenhower's men further away from their supply lines while allowing Arnim and Rommel to combine their forces.

In theory, the Axis forces in North Africa should have been at a disadvantage, primarily over the inability of the Germans to adequately supply their own forces. However, they did have one huge advantage over the Allies - a unified command structure. It was very clear who commanded the German forces in Tunisia. However, the Allies, in comparison, were in a mess. In theory, Eisenhower had full control of the Allied forces in the area. However, he was based in Algiers, 400 miles away from what was going on in Tunisia. Eisenhower appointed Major-General Lucien Truscott Jnr. to be his representative in the area - but Truscott based himself in Constantine, 200 miles from the frontline. Actual day-to-day command fell to Lieutenant-General Sir Kenneth Anderson, commander of the 1st British Army. Anderson himself faced a problem. Part of his force, the 19th French Corps led by Koeltz, would only take his orders from General Alphonse Juin, commander of French ground forces. Juin took his orders from General Henri Giraud. The French were still very resentful over the British attack on Mers el Kébir. In an effort to appease the French, Anderson had hoped to give them their own sector in Tunisia but the situation in the region did not allow him to fulfill this.

Anderson's situation was made even more complicated by the fact that he did not get on with the senior American commanders attached to his force. They saw him as cold and aloof. The 2nd US Corps was led by Major-General Lloyd Fredendall and he had a personal dislike for Anderson and he also had little confidence in Koeltz's men.

On January 3rd 1943, Arnim attacked the French positions with great success. Eisenhower took the decision to remove French troops to positions in the rear and replace them with newly arrived American troops. Before this could take place, Arnim struck again on January 30th and attacked more French troops - with equal success. By the end of January he had secured his bridgehead in Tunisia and had given Rommel a safe enclave to move into.

By February 1943, Arnim commanded about 100,000 men, Rommel had 70,000 men in his charge. In total the Allies had about 150,000 in the region.

On February 4th, Rommel suggested to Arnim that he should continue with his aggressive attacks against the Allies while he would do the same further south. Nazi Germany had just been stunned by the surrender of the German VI Army at Stalingrad, so a major victory in North Africa would go a long way to redressing this defeat. Also, after a retreat across North Africa, a victory would restore Rommel's reputation, especially as he had just learned that he was to be returned to Germany on the grounds of 'ill-health'. During the first two weeks of February, no-one in the Allied camp knew what Arnim and Rommel were planning. Then suddenly, and in a manner still not fully known, Allied intelligence told Anderson that they knew exactly what Arnim and Rommel were planning - a major attack against the French which would allow them to then attack the British. The French were ordered to withdraw their men from the positions that they held. This further damaged Anglo-French military relations as Koeltz did not want to pull back his men before they had been in a fight.

On February 14th, the Germans attacked during a sandstorm. They quickly destroyed 44 American tanks, 26 artillery guns and 22 trucks. Anderson believed that the attack was a diversion to disguise an attack further north. Ironically, both Anderson and Arnim believed that any decisive battle would be fought much nearer along the coast of Tunisia, yet here they were fighting inland.

On February 15th, the Americans launched a counter-attack. By February 17th, they had lost a further 98 tanks, 57 halftracks and 29 artillery guns. As they withdrew, the Americans destroyed vital supplies but the Germans managed to get hold of a vital 5,000 gallons of aviation fuel.

You'll note that crushed by superior armor, command, communications and maps, the Americans took a drubbing the first day and the next they counterattacked. .. and continued counterattacking until there was nothing left to counter attack with.

Next, Rommel was ordered to attack Le Kef - some 60 miles north of the Kasserine Pass. To attack Le Kef, he had to move his troops through the pass. General Alexander was given the command of Anderson's 1st Army and Montgomery's 8th Army. He was staggered at the confusion he saw in all the areas that the Allies controlled - he simply ordered that there would be no withdrawal from any positions.

On February 18th, there was little activity on the front and this allowed the Allies to tighten up their defenses. The arrival of the 9th Artillery Division did a lot to bolster morale - it had traveled 735 miles in four days. Between February 19th and 22nd, Rommel tried to reach his target - Le Kef. However, he realized that he did not have the means to launch a meaningful attack and on the 22nd February Rommel ordered that the attack be called off. His primary problem was the constant lack of supplies - men had been withdrawn from North Africa to fight in the Russian campaign - something that angered the 'Desert Fox'. He withdrew from the Kasserine Pass unbeknown to the Allies who failed to follow up his retreat. By February 25th, the Kasserine Pass was in the hands of the Allies and the Germans had been pushed back to the Eastern Dorsale.

The action in the Kasserine Pass cost the Germans 2,000 men and the Allies about 10,000 men, of which 6,500 were Americans.

Where in hell does ANY of this compare to Norways rollover? It took the Americans 3 days to rectify the situation on the ground in Africa.. Norway had six weeks.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/kasserine_pass.htm
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline DiabloTX

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #262 on: December 28, 2008, 11:28:21 PM »
I keep wondering why this has been ignored. (Credit to Diablo for finding it.)

http://www.norway.org/history/after1814/ww2/ww2.htm


Yep.  I mean it only states this on the main page, "Norway - the official site in the United States"

So, Norway says it's official.  Game over.

"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #263 on: December 29, 2008, 03:30:47 AM »
thank god.

i wuz runnin low on cut 'n paste perkies.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #264 on: December 29, 2008, 10:11:44 AM »
Coincidently there is a new norwegian film about their resistance fighters. I hope it will be dubbed to English or at least released with english subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbK4WTQFf9U


<S> Norway!

(Btw. Nilsen and the other decent people here: Ignore the idiots.)
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline CAVPFCDD

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #265 on: December 29, 2008, 11:41:42 AM »
Coincidently there is a new norwegian film about their resistance fighters. I hope it will be dubbed to English or at least released with english subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbK4WTQFf9U


<S> Norway!

(Btw. Nilsen and the other decent people here: Ignore the idiots.)

way cool, I tried to say I knew people and family who fought in the resistance, but that all got lost in the ignorance of this thread, movie looks great
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #266 on: December 29, 2008, 11:51:47 AM »
the ignorance of this thread
You mean like the definition of say... ummm... surrender?
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Offline straffo

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #267 on: December 29, 2008, 12:01:15 PM »
How many times have you been under fire?
being married count ?

and I didn't even thought of reading the 17 next pages

Offline straffo

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #268 on: December 29, 2008, 12:06:51 PM »
well I don't really care of the opinion of peoples living in a continent where none had the thrilling experience of being neighbour of (put a tick mark in front of the your hereditary enemy)

Germany
England
Spain
Russia
Austria
France
Luxembourg   (this one is a witty joke)


lastly my very humble opinion :p

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Norwegin Aces
« Reply #269 on: December 29, 2008, 12:09:34 PM »
Is Skuzzy on vacation or something?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi