P-47 Gun Loadout vs. Maneuverability

[lowZX14]

Historically, I can tell you that it was standard practice in the 325th FG to strip 2 of the 50's for better climb rate and a little more maneuverability.  It's funny this came up since I was just reading it in one of the books that I got on the 325th for Christmas.

[BnZs]

But at those speeds you are both limited by G, not lift limited in your turning.

Ok, on an initial merge doing somewhere from 340-400. On a first engagement of a sortie I've found I'm in those seed ranges for the most part, a little out of the 38's flap range, but still in either a jug or pony's

[SmokinLoon]

here is my thought on the matter:

Since the P47x really needs to keep its E as much as possible and really shouldnt be getting in a turn fight vs anything other than a 190, P38, Typhoon, another jug, or a bomber, as least from my point of view, most of the shots are going to be quick snap shots with minimal time on target ability.  So having the greatest amount of firepower available is key.  Ditto for taking the Fw190A-8 w/o the 30mm.

The P47D-40 has been my ride as of late and I'm really liking the true BOOM n ZOOM capabilty of the plane.  I've tried the 6 gun package and those extra 2 .50 cals of the 8 gun package are worth enough in firepower to sacrifice the seemingly absent penalty in weight/climb/turn.  

Do the math sometime and see what the dmg over time is for the 8/.50 cals vs dual 30mm.  

[bozon]

I keep hearing that. I don't know why. If you are above both aircraft's cornering speed, then both of you are limited by Gs unless one of you is limited by control authority. They won't "out-turn" anything above ~270mph they'll turn "about as well" because all our pilots can stand the same amount of G. The only help maneuvering flaps are above corner speed is as an aid to deceleration in the turn, you don't need the extra lift. Speed brakes would serve this function even better...

That is the point. The increased turning ability at high speed is an illusion. The Jug has increased "speed loosing ability" which is excellent even without the flaps. Usually this is not considered an advantage as it means that the jug looses energy very fast and it is not very good at building it back. The philosophy behind such E-bleeding ability is to be able to trade all you potential for one shot opportunity, after which you kill your opponent or disengage.

The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example. At high altitudes, the P47 has even a power loading which is superior to most planes, but that is irrelevant to AH.

[BnZs]

The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example.

Eh, let us not kid ourselves. Loaded for similar range, it has a higher wing loading than the Corsair.

[LilMak]

From the perspective of a guy who uses the jug as his primary ride and regularly gets down and dirty with it (see: in a horde getting arse handed to him), having a better snapshot ability far outweighs any perfomance increases from leaving the extra guns in the hangar. When you get in a fight with a jug, you need to bring the bad guys down fast because they will eventually get the upper hand if they have any skill.

[Krusty]

I generally like longer sorties. I'll take full ammo and guns just for the HOPE of getting more kills.

However, taken from the E6B:

P47D-40 8-gun (3400 rounds) 100%: 14951 lbs
P47D-40 8-gun (noAmmo) 100%: 13897 lbs

P47D-40 6-gun (2550 rounds) 100%: 14558 lbs
P47D-40 6-gun (noAmmo) 100%: 13767 lbs

P47D-40 6-gun light ammo (267 rpg): 14264 lbs

3400 rounds 50cal = 1054 lbs
1x 50cal round = 0.31 lbs
empty weight difference between 6/8 gun = 130 lbs
each Browning M2 = 65 lbs

Taking full ammo is like having 1000lb bomb strapped to you while fighting. You save almost 400lbs by taking the 6-gun-full-ammo option, and you same almost 700lbs by taking the  6-gun-light-ammo option.

It makes a big difference in how easily you can fling the plane around, especially when stalling, using flaps, etc.

[BnZs]

IMO, looks like the light ammo load is better deal than leaving two guns in the hangar. You  can't argue away the effect of two extra guns in making the best of your firing opportunities on typical maneuvering targets.

[Krusty]

oh I totally agree!

The point to dogfighting in the jug is the extra pair of guns. If I go light most times I take 8-guns-light-ammo. Only time I've ever really taken 6-guns-light-ammo is to really test how far I can push a light jug (not really my style) or to save as much weight on an already-overloaded jabo ride that won't be doing dogfighting (3 bombs 10 rockets and full fuel).

[bj229r]

That is the point. The increased turning ability at high speed is an illusion. The Jug has increased "speed loosing ability" which is excellent even without the flaps. Usually this is not considered an advantage as it means that the jug looses energy very fast and it is not very good at building it back. The philosophy behind such E-bleeding ability is to be able to trade all you potential for one shot opportunity, after which you kill your opponent or disengage.

The jug is considered a very heavy loaded plane. The truth is that when low on fuel it has a wing loading which is only slightly higher than F4U (same wing area, a little more weight) and is much better than the 190s from example. At high altitudes, the P47 has even a power loading which is superior to most planes, but that is irrelevant to AH.

Lol that's my gameplan in a nutshell

[Stoney]

Arguably, the Jug is the most weight-sensitive aircraft in the game, and generally, fighting it as light as possible in the MA should always be the goal.  8 guns with 425 rds/gun is a tremendous weight penalty, if you're intending on air-to-air.  6 guns with 425 rds/gun is heavier than 8 guns with 267 rds/gun.  6 guns with 267 rds/gun obviously decreases the wingloading and assists the roll rate, but as others have said before, its still a P-47 and heavy relative to other aircraft.  Loosing the two guns seems like a high penalty for the performance gains.

For escort and fighter sweep missions, I only fly 8 guns, 267 rds/gun.  You still have the snapshot of 8 guns, but almost 500 lbs lighter from the ammo difference.  I usually run out of fuel before ammo, even in the Jug-N.  Only if I'm rolling for air-to-ground or intercepting bombers will I consider the heavier ammo package. 

[Novice3]

Hmmm .50 cal round only .31 lbs   thats 140 grams  no way  that could b true iv seen 50 cal round anybody have one to weigh??

[TonyJoey]

Jug owns      I always take 8 .50's but the lighter ammo pack. Little less weight, but still a helluva punch.

[Wingnutt]

the light 8 gun pack is the way to go, it gives a noticeable improvement in climb over the heavy 8, switching to the 6.. no, sorry.  firepower is the biggest asset to the jug, (plus its E retention)  so stripping off guns on the jug to make it weigh less, is like taking the wheels off your car to make it weigh less.

[splitatom]

i only take the 8 gun hevy ammo load if i am vultching or if i am just strafeing a vh if not just take the 8 light ammo