Author Topic: Respect - Honor - Fair Play  (Read 8911 times)

Offline bmwgs

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Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« on: January 02, 2009, 03:03:41 AM »
In a previous thread there was an issue how the distinction of fair play, honor, and a reasonable even playing field is understood by various players in Aces High.  I received a response from two players, Urchin and BaldEagl, who answers somewhat intrigued me.  I felt we hijacked that thread, and it has since been locked, but I would like to continue this discussion.

I am not trying or looking for a mud slinging contest.  If that's what this thread turns into being, then I for one will simply quit responding and face the fact that there can not be a serious discussion of various opinions in this BBS.

I responded to Urchin that I would title the thread BMWgs and Urchin’s discussion.  I have since changed my mind and have decided to title it as I did so it can be a discussion of respect, honor, and fair play as understood by various members of the Aces High Community.

Now I am not a gifted writer or typist, and to our English majors out there, I am sure you will find some mistakes, and if you so desperately feel the need to advise me of these mistakes, then go right ahead.

To be Continued
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 03:12:51 AM by bmwgs »
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline bmwgs

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2009, 03:04:49 AM »
From Urchin:

“   Sir - The difference is that you need/want an explanation, because you do not see the values of 'fair play' or 'honor' as being applicable to this game. “


With all due respect, I do see the values of fair play and/or honor being applicable to this game.  What I do not see and how it is defined by other players, including the “old vets”.  This is the question I was asking.  Not the definition of what the words mean, but how do you interpret it.

Honor is a unique word, it has several meanings, but I think we will agree on it main definition as being;

Honour or Honor (see spelling differences), (from the Latin word honos, honoris) is the evaluation of a person's trustworthiness and social status based on that individual's espousals and actions. Honour is deemed exactly what determines a person's character: whether or not the person reflects honesty, respect, integrity, or fairness.

The problem is this definition can be interpreted differently by individuals.  The sense of honor varies from culture to culture.  What my not be honorable to me and you, may be honorable to a person from a different segment of society and/or culture.  That is why I asked the question.  I specifically wanted to ask how honor is understood by the older members as it applies to this game.  I would like to even see some examples.  I hope this clears up what I was asking.

Urchin:

  Again, this very clearly illustrates what I see as the difference between myself (and the small minority who see things like me) and you (and the vast majority of the online gaming 'community').  You seem to be saying that you understand the concepts of honor and respect, but you do not find them applicable to online games?  Is that correct?


This is not correct.  I feel the concepts of honor and respect should be applied to on-line games as in all other facets of life.  Now, I don't know if I am a member of the majority of the on-line community since Aces High is the only game I play on-line, but I do feel there should be honorable play, but then again what is honorable to me may not be honorable to another player. 

As for the respect part, I see some members of the minority as you describe it, demonstrate the lack of respect to payers everyday on this BBS and on 200 in game.  For respect to be received it should be earned.  Many times I see only a one way path here.  Just because a person has been playing this game since AW days does not mean that they automatically should have the respect of every new player that joins the game.  Earning the respect of others is an ongoing process.  On the flip side, a new player should extend some respect to older players until they have time to determine if that player should be entitled to it.

Urchin:

I'm not sure exactly where I did any name calling or made any smart assed remarks, but if I offended you I apologize.  I have very clear concepts of what honor, respect, courtesy, and fair play - but I make no distinction between sitting across the table from someone playing chess and playing it over Yahoo.  The people on the other side of the screen are people that are just as real as I am, even if I'll never meet them face to face.  The curious dichotomy between values that are applicable 'in real life" and those applicable 'online' honestly puzzle me.  Can you explain to me (without taking offense, as I truly intend none) how you manage that?


Your are absolutely right. You did not do any name calling.  That was my mistake.  I got lazy and combined two answers into one.  I apologize to you for that.

The rest of your reply I can answer in two words “Human Contact”.  There is a distinction between me sitting across the table from someone where I can look into their eyes and see the emotions they exhibit.  I can not see this through the strokes of a key board.  I do agree that honor, respect, courtesy and fair play can and should be extended in the virtual world, but to me there is a significant difference between real life and an on-line life.  So we are not really that far off from each other on this subject, at least not in my opinion.

Urchin:

I haven't truly enjoyed the game in years.  I kept coming back hoping that I would be re-captivated, but I always found myself disgusted with the gameplay in shorter and shorter time frames.  Cancelled my account for the final time in the Spring, and packed away the 'flight gear'.  I think that pretty much all of the people who feel the same way about this game as I did have also left in disgust.  I know there is a small group of people trying to change the course of the game, but that seems as futile to me as standing in the Mississippi and spreading your arms trying to dam the river.


Now this is where we really have a different of opinions.  I did not realize that you were no longer a playing member.  To leave the game and then come to the game's BBS and voice an opinion on how it should be played, to me is like moving out of a town, and then coming back to the City Council Meetings trying to influence how the one that are living there should live.  Urchin, I say this will all due respect.  I personally don't care if you post or not on this BBS, that is up to HTC.  I value anyone’s input on any subject until I see that it is just a troll.  I do not believe this is the case with you.  I just wanted to express my opinion that I would not enter a discussion on a forum that I am no longer involved in.

I understand that some players would like it to be the way it was.  If that are what they are trying to achieve, then the path they have taken is the wrong one with all the name calling, insults, belittling, and other disrespectful actions they have directed towards anyone that does not agree with them.

Fred

To Be Continued
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 03:16:31 AM by bmwgs »
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline bmwgs

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 03:05:21 AM »
From BaldEagl:

The point is to make the game enjoyable for everyone.


I agree 

From BaldEagl:

Most of us are here to test our skills in airial combat.  Any of the better sticks can take on  1, 2 or even three opponents and have at least a chance of coming out on top.  More than that and the likelyhood is slim to none so being the fourth, fifth or sixth guy in on a lone con isn't really fair play.  Why not just fly on and find another con?  You know, I was at an enemy base one night alone.  I started out in a one on one and before I knew it there were thirty Rooks up all after me.  After I died they all landed.  What's up with that?  Where's the fun in that for anyone?


I don't know if I agree with that most are here to test their skills sin aerial combat.  The dynamics of this game has changed since I have started playing, so even though that may have been the original focus, only a true survey would tell

As for you being the lone con with a gang bang behind you, well, you may be the only game in town at the time.  Wasn't fun for you, but the other six may have had a great time.  I don't know I wasn't there, but as it has been said before what's fun to you may not be what's fun for someone else.


From BaldEagl:
You can't expect multitudes of opposing players to end their sorties to up to defend NOE hoard missions undetected to remote areas of the map that no one is watching.  There's no way to reasonably defend against a 25-30 plane NOE mission like the one I took part in the other night.  Back in AW I was CO of a 60+ member squad.  We staged missions with planes taking off from as many as 5 bases and converging at our target.  We didn't go NOE.  We also didn't care if we won or lost; only that we had fun and we always did and so did our opponents.


Yes a 30 plane NOE can be busted by one player.  I have seen LYNX do it many of times.  Matter of fact he is quite good at it.

From BaldEagl:

Spying to alert the other side to missions or side switching to turn a CV into danger are probably a couple of the more dis honerable acts in the game aside from shade vulching.  This is the true measure of doing anything to "win".  I'm sorry but that's not winning.  The ones who do this are true losers.


I agree with you from my interpretation of honor.  I do not agree with spying, or switching sides with intent to do a specific action like to bust a mission or sink a CV.  I have no problems with people who switch sides just to fight on the lower number side.

As for shade vulching that would be HTC’s responsibility to take corrective action when it is brought to their attention.

From BaldEagl:

These are just a few examples.  Shall I continue?


For the most part you haven't given any examples that I personally do not agree with.

From BaldEagl:
 
I'm not advocating that you should let a wounded plane go with a salute for a good fight like in the old days (yes, it's true and it was a pretty common practice because people were'nt obsessed with their scores).  Like I said, it's about making the game fun for everyone.


No comment

From BaldEagl:

There's an old saying... treat people the way you would like to be treated.  That doesn't mean don't fight them and don't shoot them down.  Just have a little common courtesy and if you do get shot down leave the 200/PM tirade crap at the door.


Could not have said it better, just wouldn't be as entertaining on Friday and Saturday nights.

From BaldEagl:

Do you understand now?


This is a question I'm not sure how to take.  One part says your being sarcastic, where the other side of me is saying your just asking a question.  Can't really respond to this until I understand the actual intent.


I know this has been a long post, and I apologize for that.  I just felt I need to respond to some replies to some of my earlier posts.  I would like to state that I did not intend to insult anyone on this board.  I just had some question that I wanted some sincere responses to.

OK, my shield if up   shoot away

Fred
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 03:32:31 AM by bmwgs »
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline Delirium

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 03:38:16 AM »
I hate to bring this up again, I feel as though I am wasting my time. You view this game a certain way that is vastly different from my own, but this is how I view the game when looking at a new player.

(I posted this in a different forum)
_____________________________ _____________

1. Guy starts AH, has no clue what to do.

2. He finds the ACM/Dogfighting skill curve too steep, decides to affect the game the only way he can; bombing.

3. He starts off with heavy fighters, most often augering in the process of hitting the target.

4. He moves on to heavy bombers, not always learning how to use the bomb site.

5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------

At this point they;

A. Continue to base take with large numbers and futher refine the process with more numbers or specialized missions.

B. Get bored of base taking.

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

D. Decide to approach the game from a new perspective, often through scenarios or some other event.
_____________________________ _

It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

That said, there are very few I honor within Aces High and those gents I've known for well over 10 years (people like Corky, Silat, Fencer). I respect many that don't share my view of how Aces High so long as they reciprocate; don't hide in the horde or ruin the few good fights the rest of us can find on the map.

That said, have you spent anytime with someone who can show you some moves in the DA, Bmwgs? The joy of base taking can't even compare to taking on multiple cons by yourself and winning. Until you have tasted that freedom, you haven't really experienced Aces High, imho...

Let me know, I'd be more than happy to teach you the little I know.
Delirium
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Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2009, 03:43:01 AM »
spot on Del  :aok
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Offline Getback

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 03:44:32 AM »
Great post beemer. Hopefully it will stay civil.

I've been playing flight sims for 12 years or more. The term honorable is elusive to me. The other day I saw a duel going on between a countryman and a knight. I asked if he needed help. He said no. So I stayed out. That's honorable. But if he lost I was going in. Is that honorable! Many will say no. For one I had no idea how the fight developed. Did the con come in with alt. Did the con have a superior plane. Heck I didn't look to see what the friendly was flying.

Is spying honorable. Nope. Yet about every country did it in WWII.

Is shooting down a glider honorable. Some will say no? What if the guy calls out no ammo? Should you shoot him down anyway. Some will say no and others yes. Personally I will shoot either plane down. Reason: They should have managed their resources better and why should they get a free pass out after attacking our countrymen or our base. BTW, we use to do that back in AW. That is give free pass. I remember the turning point for me though very clearly. I saw a low con coming in and he said that he was out of ammo. So I let him go. He landed 12 kills and AW didn't have a rearm pad. So I looked at the after action reports. He had been shooting down his own squaddie to get better fighter ranking.

Respect I do understand and is not elusive. Respect is when you give a check 6 and thank those that give it to you. Respect is when you refrain from flaming another and when you <S> the guy that shot you down in a good fight. Respect is when you pick someone and don't hale it over the country channel. Respect is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Fair play I will leave for others. That is just as elusive as honor.

Addendum: There is not much fair about this game. It's really more about freedom than fairness. The freedom to choose what you want to do and what to do it in. For the most part you can choose the situation you want to be in or the situation you want to avoid. For instance if there is a large horde and not many friendlies you don't have to fly to defend. You can sit in a manned ack or up a gv or just avoid the area. Better yet just fly on the fringes of the horde and drag one out. Still though if you go to the level of pilot vs pilot, plane vs plane there will never be fair play. It's not even possible.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 03:59:28 AM by Getback »

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Offline Delirium

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 04:04:22 AM »
Still though if you go to the level of pilot vs pilot, plane vs plane there will never be fair play. It's not even possible.

Nothing is better than allowing a superior performing Spit16 to dive on my 38 and eventually wearing him down to the point I can get a guns solution on him. It is a high beyond measure!

If you only engage when you have the advantage, you will find yourself meat any time you do not have that advantage. Do you want to be the hunter or the hunted? Sometimes, the hunter isn't the guy with the better plane and more altitude...
Delirium
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Offline bmwgs

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 04:08:49 AM »
I hate to bring this up again, I feel as though I am wasting my time. You view this game a certain way that is vastly different from my own, but this is how I view the game when looking at a new player.

(I posted this in a different forum)
_____________________________ _____________

1. Guy starts AH, has no clue what to do.

2. He finds the ACM/Dogfighting skill curve too steep, decides to affect the game the only way he can; bombing.

3. He starts off with heavy fighters, most often augering in the process of hitting the target.

4. He moves on to heavy bombers, not always learning how to use the bomb site.

5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------

At this point they;

A. Continue to base take with large numbers and futher refine the process with more numbers or specialized missions.

B. Get bored of base taking.

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

D. Decide to approach the game from a new perspective, often through scenarios or some other event.
_____________________________ _

It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

That said, there are very few I honor within Aces High and those gents I've known for well over 10 years (people like Corky, Silat, Fencer). I respect many that don't share my view of how Aces High so long as they reciprocate; don't hide in the horde or ruin the few good fights the rest of us can find on the map.

That said, have you spent anytime with someone who can show you some moves in the DA, Bmwgs? The joy of base taking can't even compare to taking on multiple cons by yourself and winning. Until you have tasted that freedom, you haven't really experienced Aces High, imho...

Let me know, I'd be more than happy to teach you the little I know.


Thanks for your response.  Delirium, you seem to think that I fly in a hord all the time.  Well if that is the case I sure wish they were there when I had my arse handed me on a platter several times today.

You seemed to direct your response to me personally about my experience and ability.  In fact I can tell you I really don't know where I stand.  I can tell you what my score is, but that really doesn't mean anything, because a few off hour bombing missions can keep that pretty low.   I do think my ability is improving because I rarely get killed in the first turn.  Still happens, but not as often.  I have worked in the TA where I have spent some time once with ghost (sp) and the other with mtnman (sp).  Both were very helpfull.  I have also received advise from friend and foe.

As for the DA, Well the couple time I have gone in there I was hoed, picked, ramed, and gang banged.  I can get this in the MA.  I guess you think I just fly with a hord all day, well sorry that is not the case.  My intent of this thread was not really about me being in a squad but to try to understand the thinking or logic of some of the older vets.

As for the offer to teach me "the little" of what you know.  I'm on-line all the time.  If you kill me or see me on-line give me a shout I would be honored to be a student of your knowledge.

Fred  
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline gpwurzel

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2009, 04:18:31 AM »
Personally I treat others how I would expect to be treated.

I try not to ho, however, if you open up on me on the merge, if I've got guns on, i'll fire back

I'll go pick a fight anywhere in anything (listening to my squaddies laughing at me when I tell them where I am, and how many I enemy I have around me lol)

I dont call people out on 200, tho I have asked them what plane they were in, how did they do that etc etc, and for the most part, I get polite responses etc (tho there is always someone who misconstrues what I typed doh)

I love this game - I love the fact I can up any plane in the set and find a fight (even if I lose). However, what makes it even more fun, is the people that fly/fight etc - beating/losing to a human opponent is the epitomy of fun to me - can I beat him/her or will I get my backside handed to me (normally the latter lol)

If I see a nme con already I will ask if they need help - if they dont respond and I see that they are losing, I might engage, unless there are loads around him already looking for the kill. If I see an nme unengaged, I will surely drop in and try (emphasis on try) to kill him.

At the end of the day, its a game, no-one really dies from being shot down in this virtual world, no-one gets injured etc - have fun, and enjoy it.

<S>

Wurzel
I'm the worst pilot ingame ya know!!!

It's all unrealistic crap requested by people who want pie in the sky actions performed without an understanding of how things work and who can't grasp reality.


Offline Sloehand

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 04:27:10 AM »
Having only read the conversation and topic as displayed in this thread, I'd like add these observations, even though I'm somewhat guessing at what the connotation of respect, honor and fairplay are as defined in previous discussion.  

Respect should be initially given in some small measure simply because the other player is like you.  He enjoys flying, fighting and AH.  He may be something of a flight buff, WWII buff, or just someone who enjoys the game or gaming.  

To illustrate, I ride Harleys exclusively in real life.  To me they are the only ride and I don't understand why others would want to ride any other type of bike.  However, regardless of the machine, we all love cruising the open road and we all experience the same dangers of the road.  So while I may not understand, or closely identify with non-Harley riders, I always give them respect for what we do have in common.  It's the same for me in AH.

Honor is a tough one to evaluate in a war game.  We are really not afforded any great opportunities for displays of honor or chivalry.  Therefore, I equate honor somewhat with a person's type of gameplay.  Now this is a tough one because on one hand everyone pays their $15 and has the right to play the game as they want.  I advocate this as a general rule.  On the other hand, I have little respect nor think there is much honor in those who clearly game-the-game for purpose of score.  As in flying a few dozen missions in a fighter scored as a fighter, then flying every other fighter sortie scored a Attack, simply to skew the player's score.  It's not cheating, but it's not really honorable either.  Admittedly, for this type of thing, there can be a fine line that's hard to define for everyone.  In such a case, some might find a player is just being clever and appropriately gaining an edge, while others might find the same action wrong and underhanded.  Ergo, the eternal arguement.

Fairplay to me is also about gameplay.  Many play this game differently, and want different experiences and types of enjoyment out of it.  BaldEagl talked about 1 v. 3, then 4 and 5, but what wasn't clear to me is, where did this happen?  If I'm defending a base from attack, even initially with just a small number of bandits (and I don't how many more may be soon to arrive), I want bandits down fast to prepare for the next wave.  1 v. 1 chivalry duels are out the window in that case, unless the friendly wants it that way and can call everyone else off.  Otherwise, the proper tactic is 'reasonable' gangbang, or rather stacking the odds in your favor to end the fight quickly, then gain alt for the next group of bad guys.

On the other hand, finding a 1 v. 1 or 2 battle between bases, where nothing tactically critical is in peril, honor and fairplay would be nice.  If I don't know the engaged friendly, I try to make a point to ask if assistance is needed before piling in.  But in a war game simulation, with opposing sides battling it out, and so many involved in the 'war' aspect of the game rather than just dogfighting, it seems silly to expect some medieval jousting scenario with additional challengers on the sideline patiently waiting to battle the winner of the current 1 v. 1 fight.  Right or wrong, good or bad, HiTech developed this into a war game, that features WWII air combat simulation, but that's no longer what it is exclusively about.

Finally, about attitudes and courtesy.  Too many people offer the excuse "it's only a game" to validate their poor behavior and attitude after they trash, bait or bad mouth people on 200.  While we are playing a 'game', we are doing it with real people, using time from our 'real' lives.  We bring our real feelings with us.  We are engaged in a competition and a social activity at the same time, neither of which is it considered honorable or courteous to engage in disrepectful bad behavior.  

Unfortunate, many with very shaky egos see this as the perfect place to 'act out' their darker side with seemingly no consequences.  For myself, what repect, honor and fairplay in AH means to me is, applying the same courtesy and manners as I would in real life, facing another player over a chessboard, or pool table, or on a soccer pitch.  The anonymity afforded by the Internet too often brings out the worst in some people's nature, that which they hide in real life due to the social ostracism that might occur if displayed in public, or to family and friends.

At least this is my story and I'm sticking to it.   :aok

  
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 04:28:50 AM »
As for the DA, Well the couple time I have gone in there I was hoed, picked, ramed, and gang banged.  I can get this in the MA.

If I show you anything, it won't be the cesspool of the furball area of the DA, it has been corrupted and is a pick/run fest. We would do 1v1s at a side field or spend time in the TA.
Delirium
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Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline bmwgs

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2009, 04:36:52 AM »
If I show you anything, it won't be the cesspool of the furball area of the DA, it has been corrupted and is a pick/run fest. We would do 1v1s at a side field or spend time in the TA.

I don't want to impose on you, so anytime you see me on, and you have the time, shoot (i mean send) me a pm and I will gladly meet up with you.   :)

Thanks,

Fred
One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine... - From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2009, 05:22:34 AM »


5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------


This is what I feel was the whole gist of the previous locked thread and why it devolved into a thread about honor and fair play.  It wasn't about "who's better".  It was a "look at us" thread.  When you start a thread like that you don't always get the kind of attention you want.

I know you didn't start that other thread bmwgs, but you ended up having to defend yourself and your squad in more ways than one. 


Great post beemer. Hopefully it will stay civil.

I've been playing flight sims for 12 years or more. The term honorable is elusive to me. The other day I saw a duel going on between a countryman and a knight. I asked if he needed help. He said no. So I stayed out. That's honorable. But if he lost I was going in. Is that honorable! Many will say no. For one I had no idea how the fight developed. Did the con come in with alt. Did the con have a superior plane. Heck I didn't look to see what the friendly was flying.

Nothing wrong with going in after they are done.  Fight's on, again.  Nothing wrong with going in if your countryman ask for help either, I believe. 

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Is spying honorable. Nope. Yet about every country did it in WWII.

There are usually consequences to spying.  Taking a risk to get information.  You get caught, you get hung.  Here there are no risks nor are there consequences.  Just because "every country did it" doesn't make it OK.  It all comes down to the honor system.

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Is shooting down a glider honorable. Some will say no? What if the guy calls out no ammo? Should you shoot him down anyway. Some will say no and others yes. Personally I will shoot either plane down. Reason: They should have managed their resources better and why should they get a free pass out after attacking our countrymen or our base. BTW, we use to do that back in AW. That is give free pass. I remember the turning point for me though very clearly. I saw a low con coming in and he said that he was out of ammo. So I let him go. He landed 12 kills and AW didn't have a rearm pad. So I looked at the after action reports. He had been shooting down his own squaddie to get better fighter ranking.

Like you said, he should have managed his resources better, or run sooner.  If he still had ammo or fuel, and you were RTB, would he let you go?  If he had ammo or fuel and were fighting someone else, would he not jump in?


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Respect I do understand and is not elusive. Respect is when you give a check 6 and thank those that give it to you. Respect is when you refrain from flaming another and when you <S> the guy that shot you down in a good fight. Respect is when you pick someone and don't hale it over the country channel.

Respect is earned based on all of your actions not just the Salutes and Check 6's.

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Respect is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Respect for others as well as yourself is treating them as you want to be treated.  Conversely, this does not include, "well, they did it" about things you do not like.  It is kind of where the "it's my $15" argument breaks down.  Put yourself in the other guy's shoes every once in a while.  Look at things from the other side.




wrongway




« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 05:24:34 AM by AWwrgwy »
71 (Eagle) Squadron
"THAT"S PAINT!!"

"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2009, 06:50:19 AM »
Respect always comes back to me in how a person contributes to the game and the AH community overall.  Maybe for an old timer like me, it's different then for a younger kid in here.  I remember lying on my bed as a kid looking at the models hanging from the ceiling that I'd put there to show me pretend air combat, and wishing I could get inside them to pretend.  I never thought the day would come where I could do just that.  Along comes AW and I'm flying against real people and finding folks with a shared interest in getting better at the game and helping each other learn.

Those guys helped me find my perspective on the game and also made it important that we ty and pass that on.

What worries me is that folks don't seem to see their place and their responsibility to the AH community overall.  They tend to demand recognition, and only look at what they can take from the game and not what they can contribute.  They see score, or winning the map as a sign of their skill and their status and again it's at the expense of the overall gameplay experience for everyone.

It's the old Jack Kennedy inauguration speech.   Ask not what AH has done for you.  Instead ask what you've done for AH?

The thread where the two squads were being compared was a perfect example of this.  Honor in hording bases.  No thanks.

Maybe the thread should be what have you given back.  Think of all those folks who work on the skins for the different birds.  Think of the guys who spend hours making maps, designing FSOs, Snapshots, Scenarios.  What about the folks that take the time to help the newbies learn

And think of those folks you run into out there in a fight, who don't live or die over the fact that they might lose their cartoon lives, instead giving you a good fight, win or lose, and are cordial on 200 afterward saluting your effort or offering advice on what you might have done different to affect the outcome.   

That's the respect, honor, fair play crowd, of which there are many.  They don't grief fights just to ruin them.  They don't game the game in the name of attaboys, and they realize that we're all just a bunch of folks sitting by our computers trying to chase our imaginations in a world of WW2 aviation.

It sometimes feels like those folks get lost in the crowd,but they're still there, doing thier part.  One hopes that the newer players pick up on their example and contribute to AH as well.  It can happen, but it takes all of us as players looking past our selfish, whats in it for me approach, and taking it to what's in it for all of us and how do we make it work best for all of us.

Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Hajo

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Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2009, 07:32:51 AM »
Dan and Del.....well put.

I've been playing (yes playing) with on-line flight sims for a long time.  I like Dan, built and imagined flying these prop driven monsters from a young age.  We had an Air Force Base 8 miles from our home. (we still do).
In the 50s' and 60s' we had commercial aircraft there also. We also had F80s, F84s and finally F102s and 106s.  My father frequently took me to the airport just to watch them and land.  What a thrill.

Imagine what I thought when I found out I could do this on a PC!  I was in Heaven.  When I first started I knew nothing and got sent to the tower quickly.  People helped me and I progressed to not getting to the tower as quickly.  I still get sent to the tower now on a regular basis.  However my outlook has changed.
Before I had to be number 1 in fighters (younger of course) I accomplished that .  Now....I just play to fight or start one.  Geez......for 14.95 I can wreck all the aircraft I want!  The fight is the key and the respect for your opponent is important.  Fun is the driving factor.  Always will be for me. 

I find myself flying less......logging on to look at the map, finding 3 grids full of hordes and logging off.

I now wait anxiously for FSOs' ,Snapshots, and mainly Scenarios'.  I also enjoy helping others in the game.
When I am asked I will do my best to help someone new or a vet.  Hand asked me for help with some pointers on the P47.  He switched sides and never left.......he joined our squad The Flying Circus. Guppy I am sorry, he doesn't,t fly the P38 much anymore...if  ever  ;)

Honor and respect is earned.  Helping the community is a start.  And realizing that in the end.....it still is just a game.

- The Flying Circus -