Is it just me

[grizz441]

 LOL ITS NOT NEWBIES  I SEE GUYS  THAT HAVE PLAYED FOR 5 OR MORE YEARS HO 'ING


 when they ho responce is were out numbered or i knew you were going to ho or some other BS these are ones that make me laugh newbie hoing doesn't bother me its just guys who when your fighting 3 or 4 of them u got to duck ho after ho. you get 2 or maybe 4  then off base comes hurri st8 in for ho 1 ping fight over. then he'll brag not so tough now i killed number 1 rank it was easy lol

If a hurri is defending a base against a horde why wouldn't you Ho?  I think that's the one exception where it's perfectly valid.  As for the pilots who have been supposedly flying 5 years and Hoing 1v1s still, they probably have 5 years of suckage under their belts.

[Murdr]

dedalos,  I'm curious what you're getting at?  You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions.  Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do.  But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions.  Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true.  I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge.  That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with.  However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off  the maneuvering.  So what is the point you are getting at?  Getting players to think out of the box?  That's a good point.  Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid?  That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason.  Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?

[Softail]

One thing I have learned in the MA......If you turn nose on me....Im shooting.  I don't care anymore.

[SlapShot]

One thing I have learned in the MA......If you turn nose on me....Im shooting.  I don't care anymore.

atta boy ... perpetuate and encourage "suckage".

[dedalos]

dedalos,  I'm curious what you're getting at?  You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions.  Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do.  But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions.  Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true.  I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge.  That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with.  However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off  the maneuvering.  So what is the point you are getting at?  Getting players to think out of the box?  That's a good point.  Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid?  That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason.  Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?

What rules?  What is the confusion here?  I thought my point was clear.  If everything else is equal, the guy going for the head shot at the merge has the advantage over the guy trying to avoid.  That is not the exception.  I would think a trainer would have the ability to understand why?  If you think I am wrong tell me why or lets try it and maybe we both learn something.  Why come in here and ask if I am trolling?  If you just don;t like what I am saying thats too bad.  I told you who was the only one that was willing to give it a try so ask him.  Rules 

The guy firing at the merge dictates the fight.  You have to break to avoid, leaving him the option of following or extending or climbing for alt.  The idea that the guy will continue shooting through the merge and somehow end up at a disadvantage is BS.  Thats a nube.  He would have messed up any way and not because his guns were firing. 

I am saying that the act of HOing by itself will not kill you.  If you know what you are doing you actually gain an advantage from it when the other guy is only trying to avoid.

[dentin]

If ya can avoid the HO...by all means do so....if not, "do unto others before they do unto you"    Sadly, all the undesirable actions occurring in this game are now the norm.   

On second thought...who cares..it's a game.  The only reason I spend any time on this BBS/game is because it's too damn cold to go outside and play....c'mon Summer. 

[Murdr]

What rules?  What is the confusion here?  I thought my point was clear.  If everything else is equal, the guy going for the head shot at the merge has the advantage over the guy trying to avoid.  That is not the exception.

"If everything else is equal" all by itself is an exception.  Clearly the OP and everyone else is talking about MA fighting.  Slapshot used 99%, I used 95%, regardless of what number is used, it is a very rare occurance in a random engagement in the MA where what you've said applies, therfore the "exception".

The guy firing at the merge dictates the fight.

Where will this guy's plane be pointing at the merge?  Within rudder range of the opponent.  So the orentation of the merge is going to be based on how the opponent chooses to approach it.  At face value that sounds like the opponent has more influence on the shape and axis of the merge than the shooter.  We can negate that by limiting the opponents maneuver options with terrain and speed.  However in the average MA engagment I almost never find this quote to be the case.

You have to break to avoid, leaving him the option of following or extending or climbing for alt.

I rarely find myself "breaking to avoid" a merge where I have speed, and a few seconds advance notice of the merge in the MA.

I am saying that the act of HOing by itself will not kill you.  If you know what you are doing you actually gain an advantage from it when the other guy is only trying to avoid.

If the other guy is trying to avoid it's probably not really a HO.  The other guy is off angle and separated, and it's a matter of him crossing inside the shooters best turn circle ahead of his gun solution.

What rules?

Definition: A rule of thumb is an easy-to-remember guideline that isn't necessarily a hard-and-fast rule or scientific formula but it's more than just a dumb guess. For centuries rule of thumb has been used as an estimated measurement by many craftsmen including carpenters, brewers, and tailors. The term referred generally to the length of the thumb from the joint to the tip, approximately an inch.

[dedalos]

"If everything else is equal" all by itself is an exception.  Clearly the OP and everyone else is talking about MA fighting.  Slapshot used 99%, I used 95%, regardless of what number is used, it is a very rare occurance in a random engagement in the MA where what you've said applies, therfore the "exception".

Where will this guy's plane be pointing at the merge?  Within rudder range of the opponent.  So the orentation of the merge is going to be based on how the opponent chooses to approach it.  At face value that sounds like the opponent has more influence on the shape and axis of the merge than the shooter.  We can negate that by limiting the opponents maneuver options with terrain and speed.  However in the average MA engagment I almost never find this quote to be the case.

I rarely find myself "breaking to avoid" a merge where I have speed, and a few seconds advance notice of the merge in the MA.

If the other guy is trying to avoid it's probably not really a HO.  The other guy is off angle and separated, and it's a matter of him crossing inside the shooters best turn circle ahead of his gun solution.

Lets try it.  I still don't like that you came here implying that I am trolling or what ever just because you did not agree with my opinion.  You can pick on the words I used all you want.  You can interpret 'equal' anyway you want to fit your argument but you know what I meant.  Equal skill and no advantages.  If that is not the case the number of variables in the equation are way to many to determine what the cause of the outcome of the fight was.  By keeping things equal you try to eliminate the randomness and focus on if going for the ho actually gets you killed as easily as every one claims.

Again, since it is too hard to understand, a nube is a nube is a nube.  He is dead anyway.  The fact that his guns were firing at the merge proves nothing.

[Shane]

dedalos,  I'm curious what you're getting at?  You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions.  Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do.  But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions.  Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true.  I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge.  That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with.  However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off  the maneuvering.  So what is the point you are getting at?  Getting players to think out of the box?  That's a good point.  Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid?  That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason.  Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?

and from the "honor, respect, fair play thread,

On the other hand.  If I see the majority of my friendlies within visual ganging 1 con low, I will dive in an remove their target without a second thought.  I don't care about the kill though I do get it a surprising amount of times.  What I do care about is being stuck as the only friendly with any energy when the next wave of higher enemies come in.  The sooner the distraction is removed, the better off my tactical situation is

color me with contradicting messages?     Tactically, staying up as opposed to pigpiling the solo con *is* poor decision - makes more sense to stay up for that incoming wave. You can let them go diving down into the pigpile to help their solo gangee, giving you, as the remaining high con a variety of tactical options.

Before you say, apples and oranges, let's keep it to bananas, meaning you're both encouraging newbies to go against "conventional wisdom," i.e. tactics.   Going for the HO and pigpiling one lower con both result in leaving one with a tactically inferior position - despite what both you and dedalos claim, respectively.

When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.

[Ack-Ack]

Many Ho because they have never took the time to learn their plane. They have no idea what its capabilities are. Many start out new and are taken into some squad where kills are more important than the fight. Then they pass along their... "experience" to other new folks. Kind of like a cancer. The only way to help the situation is to donate some time to the TA to help folks move away from bad habits.

I for one will point out anyone that Hos. You never know it might keep someone from waisting their time in the area if they are looking for a good fight.

It's funny that the Typhoon we encountered flying high last night in the MW arena dove on me using a HO merge which was easily avoided.  Want to know who was flying the Typhoon?  The guy that created this thread, oh the irony...


ack-ack

[dedalos]

When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.

Yep, agreed there.  I think I stated that he has an advantage over the guy trying to get out of the way.  However, if you don;t  know if the guy will fire back or if the guy does fire back it is a completely different story.  That should also be the deterrent for engaging like that.  In the end it should work out fine.  People will realize that going HO results in a collision, damage, or death for both and will try to both avoid that situation.  The problem is not the new guys trying to take a HO shot.  I don;t think I have ever taken a single ping from them.  The problem are the vets that will wait - hold fire - until the last second or until they see you trying to avoid.

You firing back will negate the test, although it should show how stupid it really is to fly straight at several automatic guns lol.  All I ever said is that the HOer has an advantage over the guy trying to avoid.  I never really said anything about avoiding the situation all together by doing something at 3K out or anything like that.  However, if you wait until 1K or closer to dive down or some of the other funny things I have read like barrel roll, ruder something etc, you will be a dead man.  Your skill may keep you alive or you may get me but that would not be a result of me pulling the trigger.  However, some of the guys that claim they can be on your 6 in 10 seconds if you tried to HO them, would not last 10 seconds.

[Shane]

Yep, agreed there.  I think I stated that he has an advantage over the guy trying to get out of the way.  However, if you don;t  know if the guy will fire back or if the guy does fire back it is a completely different story.  That should also be the deterrent for engaging like that.  In the end it should work out fine.  People will realize that going HO results in a collision, damage, or death for both and will try to both avoid that situation.  The problem is not the new guys trying to take a HO shot.  I don;t think I have ever taken a single ping from them.  The problem are the vets that will wait - hold fire - until the last second or until they see you trying to avoid.

You firing back will negate the test, although it should show how stupid it really is to fly straight at several automatic guns lol.  All I ever said is that the HOer has an advantage over the guy trying to avoid.  I never really said anything about avoiding the situation all together by doing something at 3K out or anything like that.  However, if you wait until 1K or closer to dive down or some of the other funny things I have read like barrel roll, ruder something etc, you will be a dead man.  Your skill may keep you alive or you may get me but that would not be a result of me pulling the trigger.  However, some of the guys that claim they can be on your 6 in 10 seconds if you tried to HO them, would not last 10 seconds.

it's really all about timing and weighing the risk of taking/giving ho on the merge.

In a duel situation, when both know no HO is fourthcoming, the merge will often be closer in, around 500yds, and sometimes even tails passing before the 1st move is made in reacting to what the other may be doing.

In the Arenas the 1st move often occurs a bit further out to avoid the aforementioned risk of a HO, but it can be pushed closer in with experience, timing and as often as not some luck.


Committing to the HO leaves one open to a milisecond window of disadvantage *if* they miss as they fly looking back waiting to see the enemy go down.  It's the pause of "oh craps, it didn't work, now what?"  By the time they even thnk that, if the other guy has a clue, he's already getting angles.

To put an analogy on this: We've all seen vids/pix of a shark attack, right?  Notice when going for the actual bite, the sharks eyes kind of roll up?  Same thing when going for a HO... pulling the trigger results in that "eyes roll up" as you commit to the shot, fully expecting to achieve the "bite."   Failure = still hungry shark or dead Hoer, yanno?

[dedalos]

it's really all about timing and weighing the risk of taking/giving ho on the merge.

In a duel situation, when both know no HO is fourthcoming, the merge will often be closer in, around 500yds, and sometimes even tails passing before the 1st move is made in reacting to what the other may be doing.

In the Arenas the 1st move often occurs a bit further out to avoid the aforementioned risk of a HO, but it can be pushed closer in with experience, timing and as often as not some luck.


Committing to the HO leaves one open to a milisecond window of disadvantage *if* they miss as they fly looking back waiting to see the enemy go down.  It's the pause of "oh craps, it didn't work, now what?"  By the time they even thnk that, if the other guy has a clue, he's already getting angles.

To put an analogy on this: We've all seen vids/pix of a shark attack, right?  Notice when going for the actual bite, the sharks eyes kind of roll up?  Same thing when going for a HO... pulling the trigger results in that "eyes roll up" as you commit to the shot, fully expecting to achieve the "bite."   Failure = still hungry shark or dead Hoer, yanno?

Well, that would be the nube approach to one.  What if he starts firing at 1K and stops at D500 to switch to a normal merge.  If you go back before this got out of hand, that is my only argument.  Don;t confuse the nube that would have died anyway, with the act of pulling the trigger.  In the scenario where you simply try to avoid within 1K, you are at a disadvantage.  Yeah the nube will pull through the merge firing, but chances are he is not coming back for a fight anyway.  In the case of the people that make a leaving out of it, that is not the case.  Is it cheap, stupid, and everything else we call it?  yes.  But there is a reason they do it and it is not because they die easily after one 

[rod367th]

It's funny that the Typhoon we encountered flying high last night in the MW arena dove on me using a HO merge which was easily avoided.  Want to know who was flying the Typhoon?  The guy that created this thread, oh the irony...


ack-ack

 lol a ho merge akak please i was 3 k above u and from behind so please if you going to BS should do it when other guy does't flim every sortie he flys.



PS....was tiffy 3 38's a20  against my no fuel tiffy. i made a pass on you and went to land. You whined on 200 told you can 't out of fuel. so what do you guys try to do  kill when landing sooo please becareful don't get upset if someone for once higher alt than you lol like i said film shows me following cobria for 10miles running to 38's and shows i was at 10 defending than back at 9   but agian call guy timid  but forget to mention how u flew away when u saw higher con and came back 10 mins later 10k higher. but hey thump chesting new ah sport lol

[Bronk]

 lol a ho merge akak please i was 3 k above u and from behind

What were you....on the moon?