Help me understand something...

[Fianna]

The P51 is first designed and produced with an Allison engine, but performance isn't that great. So they switch from the Allison engine to the Merlin, and performance improves drastically. The Merlin is the same engine that is used in the Spit 16.

Why is it that the P51 is so much faster than the Spit 16, but the Spit 16 holds E better and is so much better in the vertical? If the P51 is so much more aerodynamically "cleaner" than the Spit, then shouldn't it hold E as well? If the Spit is better in the vertical because it is lighter, shouldn't it also have a higher top speed (power to weight)?


It is entirely possible that something I have said is incorrect... I was just guessing as to why the P51 is faster and why the Spit is better in the vertical. Either way, though, I'd love it if someone could explain this to me. Thanks in advance.

[Saxman]

Spits actually don't hold E all that remarkably well at all, they just REGAIN it faster because of their better level acceleration. As far as rate of climb, power-to-weight ratio is a big factor. The P-51 is a heavier aircraft so she's not going to climb as well. However she WILL still beat the Spixteen in the Zoom, because the cleaner and more massive P-51 is going to holds her energy better.

[Anaxogoras]

The P-51D does hold energy better than the Spit16.  The phenomenon you're referring to is Induced Drag, or the drag caused by lift required to maintain flight, of which the Spit16 has less than the P-51D.  Induced drag increases at low speed, and that's why the Spit16 can come out of a hard turn and hardly have suffered for it, while the P-51D, if it were to follow, is wallowing at the edge of a stall.

[Anaxogoras]

However she WILL still beat the Spixteen in the Zoom, because the cleaner and more massive P-51 is going to holds her energy better.

Not in this game.  In Aces High light aircraft with good power-loading consistently outzoom heavier aircraft with worse power-loading.  Maybe the only way a P-51 could outzoom a Spit16 in aces high is if both cut their engines upon initiating the zoom climb.

[BaldEagl]

Spits actually don't hold E all that remarkably well at all, they just REGAIN it faster because of their better level acceleration.

This isn't true.  Spits hold E incredibly well under power, particularily in a turn.  I fly Spits a lot and if I come into a fight at full speed without chopping throttle it will take 2-3 full turns before I'm at corner speed and not risking black-out.  This has absolutely nothing to do with re-gaining E as I'm trying to lose E continually.

As to zoom climb if a P-51 and Spit begin at the same speed and altitude the Spit will close on the P-51 all the way up.

[Anaxogoras]

Don't confuse Energy Retention with low Induced Drag.

[Anaxogoras]

Btw, this will surprise you all:

The fighters with the best energy retention are the P-38 series (ok, not so surprising), and the 110C/G!

[Treize69]

Heavy + twin engines= more E retention.

[CAP1]

The P51 is first designed and produced with an Allison engine, but performance isn't that great. So they switch from the Allison engine to the Merlin, and performance improves drastically. The Merlin is the same engine that is used in the Spit 16.

Why is it that the P51 is so much faster than the Spit 16, but the Spit 16 holds E better and is so much better in the vertical? If the P51 is so much more aerodynamically "cleaner" than the Spit, then shouldn't it hold E as well? If the Spit is better in the vertical because it is lighter, shouldn't it also have a higher top speed (power to weight)?


It is entirely possible that something I have said is incorrect... I was just guessing as to why the P51 is faster and why the Spit is better in the vertical. Either way, though, I'd love it if someone could explain this to me. Thanks in advance.

i think, more than anything, it's a weight issue. isn't a pony somewhere in the ballpark of 12,000 pounds in combat trim? compared to spits being under 10,000? (i think)

[Krusty]

I think, more than anything, it's an issue with the spit modeling.

I was in a Ta152, had speed and alt at about 8-10k. A spixteen zooms up from below me with a bit of speed so I spiral climb up. It takes him a while to stall out, but when he does (at 600 yards) he stalls hard enough to dip a wing. I was saving my E for this, so I'm about to roll in on him and he recovers.

From a stalled out position he recovers, noses UP at me in an 80-degree climb, and stays laser-aimed at me (never rolling, faltering, spinning, dipping a wing) while I use all the rest of my E spiralling way way higher to get away (and he stays with me, 600-800, perfectly aligned with his target), but the spixteen that had just stalled out hard was able to catch a faster, higher E-state, ta152.

This was just last night. A squaddie zoomed in at the last second and killed said spitty, I think. It was a busy night, I can't recall. Regardless, the spit model is bogus. It's more like flying TIE Fighter (Lucasarts) than a spitfire in this game.

[Treize69]

Just under four hours, you're getting slow Krusty. I figured this had "devolve into a whine about the spit FM in under an hour" written all over it.

[Krusty]

Treize, this game has the best flight model BY FAR but it is lacking in a few key MAJOR areas. It's the best, but it's not perfect.

The spit model is one glaring issue that needs to be looked at. I won't even go into some first-generation models that still need updating to new standards.

Another issue is the loss of "instability" as a feature in this game. Used to be you could take a p51 up and instantly tell the difference between a B and a D in the turns because the B didn't want to spin as easily.

Now we have ensign eliminators that have better handling than spits and zeros, p51s have none of the lethal widow-maker spins they were known for, and many other issues.

Mind you, we USED to have some of these, so somewhere along the way, something got "dulled" or perhaps a decimal was moved to the wrong position.

Oh, and on at least half a dozen planes now I've noticed the plane is 100% unstable and unflyable with both wingtips missing. The game USED to not do this. USED to be if the loss was symmetrical you lost the lift but could still control using torque and rudder. Now many planes I've run into this situation with squirrel about as if the COG is 10 feet below the plane and you've just lost your v-stab, even with the best of conditions (not counting missing both wingtips).

Something is off in the flight model.

[BaldEagl]

I was in a Ta152, had speed and alt at about 8-10k. A spixteen zooms up from below me with a bit of speed so I spiral climb up. It takes him a while to stall out, but when he does (at 600 yards) he stalls hard enough to dip a wing. I was saving my E for this, so I'm about to roll in on him and he recovers.

From a stalled out position he recovers, noses UP at me in an 80-degree climb, and stays laser-aimed at me (never rolling, faltering, spinning, dipping a wing) while I use all the rest of my E spiralling way way higher to get away (and he stays with me, 600-800, perfectly aligned with his target), but the spixteen that had just stalled out hard was able to catch a faster, higher E-state, ta152.

I call BS or at least it didn't happen the way you thought it did.

[Krusty]

Had 2 squaddies witness it. I believe B2B and Snaphook, or B2B and Gumby, maybe?

Edit: regardless, that's not the only BS the spit has shown. You can have a spixteen dweeb HO you, pull a 180 behind you as you continue straight, and then accelerate and close to kill range from behind you while you retained full speed the entire time. The Spits are bogus.

[CAP1]

Treize, this game has the best flight model BY FAR but it is lacking in a few key MAJOR areas. It's the best, but it's not perfect.

The spit model is one glaring issue that needs to be looked at. I won't even go into some first-generation models that still need updating to new standards.

Another issue is the loss of "instability" as a feature in this game. Used to be you could take a p51 up and instantly tell the difference between a B and a D in the turns because the B didn't want to spin as easily.

Now we have ensign eliminators that have better handling than spits and zeros, p51s have none of the lethal widow-maker spins they were known for, and many other issues.

Mind you, we USED to have some of these, so somewhere along the way, something got "dulled" or perhaps a decimal was moved to the wrong position.

Oh, and on at least half a dozen planes now I've noticed the plane is 100% unstable and unflyable with both wingtips missing. The game USED to not do this. USED to be if the loss was symmetrical you lost the lift but could still control using torque and rudder. Now many planes I've run into this situation with squirrel about as if the COG is 10 feet below the plane and you've just lost your v-stab, even with the best of conditions (not counting missing both wingtips).

Something is off in the flight model.

couldn't a spit run circles around a pony in real life?

 also, the only spin problems i remember reading about in any of the ponys was caused by trying to fight with the aft fuel tank full?

just asking.....