Author Topic: Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..  (Read 1753 times)

-lazs-

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2000, 10:34:00 AM »
forget it wobble... these guys don't care how much animosity is currently directed at dedicated buffers so long as they can grab a buff once in a great while and destroy most of a field.   The same guys who want ultra realistic fighter models want unrealistic buff results and modeling.   What if they didn't have to lead any with their gunsites?   just put the dot on the enemy fighter and pull the trigger....  I mean... They did have lead compensating gunsites right?

Oh well... there has allways been this imbalance in every sim.... let's not fix it now.  How dare you even suggest that we do!   What do you know about buffing in the game anyway?
lazs

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2000, 11:27:00 AM »
Im gonna assume that that comment "what do you know about buffing in a sim" is ment sarcasticaly seeing as how thats ALL I do here.

And how can anyone say it is fair that fighter get EVERYTHING I have seen some incredibly LAME whines about fighters, I.E. "such and such plane climbs 8 feet per min faster than in this sim" and of course there is a million posts of people pulling up all these stupid charts and crap.

And what pisses me off the most is the fact that the very thing everyone squeakes about buffs in this games is what i want fixed!

Jesus christ first you say  "WWAAA buff studmuffins coming at 35k killing all our hangars and shutting down our field WAAA!!"

then I come in and say, "the bombers are to accurate, the bombs dont drift any so you cant hit targets too easyly why dont we make bombing more realistic so one buff cant shut down a field"

And then you say    'LEAVE BUFFS ALONE!

What in the hell is wrong with you people!
you complain about something and then when someone has a idea on how to fix it you squeak at them!

Torque? what the hell is YOUR problem?
DO you give a toejam about the bombs, NO then SHUT UP.  Weather they are fixed or not it wont affect you. so why you gatta be an amazinhunk and post your stupid meingless comments?


Pepino

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
I think there is a lot of posts about buff accuracy & vulnerability in this BBS. If we are to get anything from Htc. first of all we should state the facts that wee agree upon. From what I read before, It seems to me there is a great degree of consensus in bombs blast radius. And there is lot of people who are of the opinion that the current pinpoint accuracy when buffing from +20k is nuts.

My point is, why don't we focus on these two things, ask for a solution, and let Htc work on it, if they so desire, intstead of angry, flaming posts? Or we agree on a list of things to be fixed in buff job, shoud it anything to be fixed at all?

Cheers,

Pepe

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2000, 04:39:00 AM »
Pepino,
I agree, its the only way thing will ever get done.
Ok if i had to pick 2 things it would have to day
1: lack any drift.
2: blast radius.

Offline SKurj

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2000, 06:57:00 PM »
More clouds and weather would possibly bring buffs lower at least +)


AKSKurj

Offline Replicant

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2000, 07:38:00 PM »
I know what you saying Wobble and in a way I agree.... but this is a game where there aren't another 20 bombers+ bombing the same target.  If bombers are less accurate then there will just be far less people using them.  Already with everyone getting more Jabo skills you are seeing a vast decrease of buffs in the MA.  Four or five months ago you'd see loads and loads of buffs, but not now.  So if you mess around with aiming then why bother using them?  (BTW, I used to fly buffs a lot - check my tour stats from tour one onwards).

So, as it is now, if you go in at really high alt (17k+) then you have a good chance of making your target.  Lower alt in a busy area then your odds drop a lot - defensive guns are nothing special when facing higher enemy fighters.  We have a couple of tough buffs (JU88 and Lancaster) which make up for the lack of defensive armament, but the B17 and B26 are fairly easily killed due to their wings/tails coming off fairly easy.

So, I'd like to see more buffs in formation but I doubt we'll see that especially if bomb aiming is made more difficult!  BTW, I would love to see lower clouds that's for sure!  One of my all time favourite sorties was buffing through gaps in the clouds!!  

Regards

'Nexx'
NEXX

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2000, 11:36:00 AM »
Dang Nexx, I never thought about that..

I guess Your right about that one.  It just bothers me to have them fall so straight and perfect from whatever alt, I know it makes for easier gameplay and such but it sure looks ugly, and I hate having to aim every bomb.  I dont really care how accurate the sight is as long as the bombs will spread out a bit when ya drop them.  I guess I have to admit it would make killing an entire field with 1 plane alot harder, but it is SO unrealistic the way it is now i could stand to make that sacrifice.  
HOW ABOUT THIS.

make bomb dispersion a HOST option.
kinda like wind and manueverkill range.

.drift 0  = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1  = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on.

That away the MA would remain the same unless enough people asked HT to change it and then on the H2H where lots of times there are say 1 bomber for every 3 fighters as opposed to 1 bomber for every 30 fighters.

I guess what I am saying is ok lets leave the MA alone but at least make it an option for H2H where bombers are WAY to powerful because their ratio to fighters is higher.
any thoughts?

Offline Replicant

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2000, 11:43:00 AM »
I forgot to mention...

Now, if the blast radius for a bomb was increased then yes they could introduce greater dispersion and I don't think anyone would be too annoyed if they did miss the target and still not do any damage.  A 250lb bomb, let a lone a 1000lb bomb, has a large blast radius and perhaps in the future this could be incorporated at the expence of dispersion.  BUT, still, people will still Jabo....

Regards

'Nexx'
NEXX

Offline flakbait

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2000, 10:57:00 PM »
As a reference, a modern Mk.84 2,000lb bomb has a lethal blast radius of 400 feet.


Source Info is an article from www.thehistorynet.com  about the F-117. In there somewhere is the reference to a Mk.84 2,000lb bomb.


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Flakbait
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Whattaya mean I can't kill em? Why the hell not?!
   

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 11-25-2000).]

Offline eagl

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2000, 01:59:00 AM »
The mechanics of bomb dropping isn't all that difficult to understand.  The primary fault in the game's bomb implementation (last time I checked) is that the bombs are unaffected by gravity and drag.  Any time you drop a real bomb, it's speed across the ground immediately begins to slow down due to it's ballistic arc, and the bomb either speeds up due to gravity or decelerates due to drag, based on the bomb shape and release speed.  This results in the bomb hitting the ground somewhere behind the plane instead of directly underneath it, and this distance is called "bomb trail".

These effects weren't modelled the last time I checked, but they might be now.  The last time I looked, if you dropped a bomb from level flight, it fell straight down and would impact directly below the plane instead of somewhere behind the plane.  This makes modelling an accurate bombsight easy, and makes dive bombing harder and more hazardous since there is no bomb trail, so you're close to the frag pattern when the bomb explodes.

Since this is how it had been since the first WB version, it doesn't seem to be a design priority in the game.  I personally would prefer that the bombs be affected by drag and wind, but I don't have to code up a dozen or so bomb flight models and then make a bombsight that is accurate for all of them either.

I learned "bomb ballistics 101" about 6 years ago, and it was done with slides, graphs, and short film clips.  I don't have any of those materials anymore.


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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
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Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2000, 09:37:00 AM »
Eagl,

That would explain why the land exactly the same no matter what alt you are at.  The thing that concerns me the most is the fact that they dont drift to the left or right either, thye always land in a perfectly straight line.  That makes the bombers have to aim EVERY bomb and also make the super accurate, the combination of those 2 things make bombing pretty much annoying to everybody.
Bombers hate having to aim every single bomb, fighters hate having all their hangars destroyed in 1 pass.

Offline eagl

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2000, 12:12:00 PM »
The perfectly straight line issue is different than whether the bombs fall realistically or not, because in the game, every aerodynamic shape and effect is "perfect".  

If you drop 2 wingless spitfires from 20k, one after another, in the game they ought to hit exactly one after another because the aerodynamic forces applied to the planes is consistently applied.  With bombs, the modelling is also consistently applied.  

To add dispersion, what we need is for the bomb to "wobble" (hehe) randomly as it exits the bomb bay, simulating it passing through the turbulent air surrounding the bomber.  The amount of wobble could be estimated by looking at some of those bomb bay films taken during WWII...  In any case, add the slight initial wobble to the bomb's vector immediately as it leaves the aircraft, and bingo!  The higher you are, the farther the bomb will stray from a perfect flight path because it started with a very very small difference in heading or dive angle.  This would be similiar to what might happen if you drop a string now while pumping the stick, rudders, and throttle all at once during the drop.  Try that out, and see if you get the dispersion you want  

One other way HTC could add realism to the bomb drop, would be to apply the wind vectors to the bombs as they pass through the wind layers.  That would definately affect bomb accuracy    Of course, game bomber pilots would scream bloody hell, because suddenly the norden wouldn't be worth crap unless you actually used math and wind estimates like real life navigators and bombadiers, and nobody would ever take the time to do that because it's not easy.

I still like the little wobble idea...  Just a very small adjustment to the bomb's trajectory as it exits the bomb bay.  The lower you are at the drop, the less this adjustment would have to the bomb's accuracy.  Think of it as dispersion for bombs  

Someone pass this along to HT and Pyro if ya like it...  

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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2000, 01:47:00 PM »
I think that bomb drift should be implemented one of two ways.

1: make it a host option, host can set weather there is bomb drift, and how much
.drift 0 (none)
.drift 1 (1 foot drift per every 200 feet fallen)...and so on

2.  (the one i favor)  make it an individual option, if a player wants his bombs to drift he can do the .drift option without anyone else having to use it too, that way everybody is happy. some like drift some dont, use whatever ya want thats it.

Thoughts?

Offline Citabria

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2000, 04:00:00 AM »
I thinke eagl's idea is awsome.

would love to see the bombs falling out of the bay wobble to give a tiny bit of randomness to bombs vector.

very cool
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

TheWobble

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Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2000, 08:00:00 AM »
Citabria,
I like it too, because that is how it ACTUALLY was.  now if we could only get the idea past the screen of "leave buffs alone" people.  Do you think it should be stardard or an host or player option?  
since its the way it really was i think it should be implemented totally but alot of people dont care if its real or not and they like it the way it is so i would like to see it as a player option.  Iy you want your bombs to wobble you can make them if you want them to fall like they do now you can be a dweeb and have that to... I see a new title evolving

"Lazerbomb Dweeb"