justice for Oscar grant

[Elfie]

And again you ignore the fact that if he did what was asked of him the cop would never had made that mistake in the first place.

It's NOT Oscar Grant's fault the cop made a mistake.....if it was in fact a mistake.

[Elfie]

"Dispersal of blame" is hardly at stake here.   He fluffied up, regardless of "resisting arrest", now he has to face the consequences. 

You seem to forget I respect all LEO's, but this is a profession where "mistakes" cannot be made.   Especially "Use of Deadly Force". 

After I fixed it, agreed.

Mistakes cannot be made in regards to the use of deadly force. Apologies can be given for arresting an innocent person, or for tazing an innocent person etc, etc. (Not that the police apologize anyway.)  It is impossible to apologize to a dead person. Dead cannot be undone.

[Elfie]

Yet I find it funny that you place ALL the blame on the outcome of that incident on the cop and say Grant was totally innocent in his actions.

I guess you are one of those that say the 4 cops who shot Diallo are guilty of murder as well.

I don't see anyone saying Oscar Grant was totally innocent of his actions. What we are saying is Oscar Grants actions did not warrant the use of deadly force. Regardless of whether or not the officers use of deadly force was intentional or accidental, the fact remains that Oscar Grant was shot in the back while laying face down on the ground. That is completely unacceptable.

In the early morning of February 4 Diallo was standing near his building after returning from a meal. Police officers Edward McMellon, Sean Carroll, Kenneth Boss and Richard Murphy passed by in a Ford Taurus when they thought Diallo matched the description of a (since-captured) serial rapist and approached him. The officers were in plain clothes. The officers claimed that they loudly identified themselves as NYPD officers and that Diallo ran up the outside steps toward his apartment house doorway at their approach, ignoring their orders to stop and "show his hands." As the suspect reached into his jacket, Carroll believed Diallo was drawing a firearm and yelled "Gun!" to alert his colleagues. The officers opened fire on Diallo and during the burst McMellon fell down the steps, appearing to be shot. The four officers fired forty-one shots, hitting Diallo nineteen times. Investigation found no weapons on Diallo's body; the item he had pulled out of his jacket was not a gun, but a wallet.

I'd say that was murder. How do you mistake a wallet for a gun and then shoot that person 19 times over a wallet?

[avionix]

Quote
In the early morning of February 4 Diallo was standing near his building after returning from a meal. Police officers Edward McMellon, Sean Carroll, Kenneth Boss and Richard Murphy passed by in a Ford Taurus when they thought Diallo matched the description of a (since-captured) serial rapist and approached him. The officers were in plain clothes. The officers claimed that they loudly identified themselves as NYPD officers and that Diallo ran up the outside steps toward his apartment house doorway at their approach, ignoring their orders to stop and "show his hands." As the suspect reached into his jacket, Carroll believed Diallo was drawing a firearm and yelled "Gun!" to alert his colleagues. The officers opened fire on Diallo and during the burst McMellon fell down the steps, appearing to be shot. The four officers fired forty-one shots, hitting Diallo nineteen times. Investigation found no weapons on Diallo's body; the item he had pulled out of his jacket was not a gun, but a wallet.

I'd say that was murder. How do you mistake a wallet for a gun and then shoot that person 19 times over a wallet?

Early morning?  Maybe it was dark?  Especially in an alley?  What would you think if you told someone to stop after identifying yourself and the person turns and reaches in his coat after you told him to put his hands in the air? 

[bongaroo]

Early morning?  Maybe it was dark?  Especially in an alley?  What would you think if you told someone to stop after identifying yourself and the person turns and reaches in his coat after you told him to put his hands in the air? 

Sounds completely reasonable... [/sarcasm]

How about all these people.  I'm sure you have plenty of ways to explain their horrible and needless deaths:

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html

[Shuffler]

There is no justifying shooting this person.


Folks are saying just saying what put him in this predicament to start with.

[Tango]

Folks are saying just saying what put him in this predicament to start with.

Exactly.

People need to realize that thier actions can result in negative outcomes as well. If Grant had obeyed the cops from the beginning then none of this would have occured. As it is now, he is dead and the cop is on trial.

Should the officer have used a tazer? Yes. Of course the question to ask is why did he pull the gun. Did he mistakenly pull the gun while grabbing for the tazer? Thats his defense, but there are some in here who say hes lieing. If so then why did he pull the gun and shot in front of so many witnesses? Did he feel like Grant was resisting so he could go for a weapon? Thats possible as well.

Bottom line is that Grant should have done cooperated with the cops in the beginning instead of resisting. Resisting a cop is not a right. It just makes things tougher on the officers and as in this situation, can lead to one life being taken and another ruined with the possibilty of prison.

[bongaroo]

Resisting a cop is not a right.

Wrong!  You have every right to resist an unlawful arrest or seizure.  Read your constitution.

I'm done with this thread.  You aren't convincing anyone that Grant got what he deserved Tango.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Wrong!  You have every right to resist an unlawful arrest or seizure.  Read your constitution.

Yep then you get a friendly pat on your back directly from the founding fathers quickly after that. 

Like ramming under a truck that speeds through a stopsign.. 'But I was right' when the question pops at St. Pete's gate.

[JimBear]

Exactly.

People need to realize that thier actions can result in negative outcomes as well. If Grant had obeyed the cops from the beginning then none of this would have occured. As it is now, he is dead and the cop is on trial.

Should the officer have used a tazer? Yes. Of course the question to ask is why did he pull the gun. Did he mistakenly pull the gun while grabbing for the tazer? Thats his defense, but there are some in here who say hes lieing. If so then why did he pull the gun and shot in front of so many witnesses? Did he feel like Grant was resisting so he could go for a weapon? Thats possible as well.

Bottom line is that Grant should have done cooperated with the cops in the beginning instead of resisting. Resisting a cop is not a right. It just makes things tougher on the officers and as in this situation, can lead to one life being taken and another ruined with the possibilty of prison.

I hope you like living in your Police state, that is as long as you are one of the Police.
No matter if the guy was "resisting" (dont breathe until I tell ya too!) or not, the man was killed for NO GOOD reason. 
Too bad I am old enough to remember when Police were the guys who lived down the street that did an honest blue collar job, and not the Heros that take down "perps" and wear ninja outfits. 

Anyone recall an O Club where the topics were about Airplanes, simulated airplanes and how to fly em?
taa

[Tango]

Wrong!  You have every right to resist an unlawful arrest or seizure.  Read your constitution.

I'm done with this thread.  You aren't convincing anyone that Grant got what he deserved Tango.

That just shows stupidity to resist anyone that is packing a gun, if it is a cop or a thug. Its far better to cooperate with a cop until you get your lawyer if you are in the right. The Constitution won't stop a bullet.

[Elfie]

Exactly.

People need to realize that thier actions can result in negative outcomes as well. If Grant had obeyed the cops from the beginning then none of this would have occured. As it is now, he is dead and the cop is on trial.

Should the officer have used a tazer? Yes. Of course the question to ask is why did he pull the gun. Did he mistakenly pull the gun while grabbing for the tazer? Thats his defense, but there are some in here who say hes lieing. If so then why did he pull the gun and shot in front of so many witnesses? Did he feel like Grant was resisting so he could go for a weapon? Thats possible as well.

Bottom line is that Grant should have done cooperated with the cops in the beginning instead of resisting. Resisting a cop is not a right. It just makes things tougher on the officers and as in this situation, can lead to one life being taken and another ruined with the possibilty of prison.

Nothing you have said justifies this officer pulling his gun and killing Oscar Grant. Nothing. Resisting does not invoke the death penalty like it did with Oscar Grant. His resisting should have never lead to his life being extinguished. If Oscar Grant had been shooting at the police, or trying to harm them with some kind of weapon then your argument would have some validity, but he wasn't so your argument cannot stand on it's own. There are other, non lethal ways to subdue prisoners. This cop was wrong and Grant's resisting does not make this officers actions excusable.

The only reason you are defending this officer so vehemently (imo) is because your brother is a Fed, something you have felt the need to tell us at least 3 times in this thread alone.

As far as resisting police being wrong? In some cases we have every right to resist them regardless of whether or not they have guns.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20061206/NEWS/612060472&SearchID=73311423016908

In this case, a judge ruled against two sheriffs deputies.

Judge says citizen had every right to resist:
Homeowner freed after beating up cops

by Todd Ruger, Sarasota [FL] Herald-Tribune March 14, 2007

SARASOTA -- John Coffin won't spend any more time in jail for beating up two sheriff's deputies inside his house, striking one in the head with a Taser gun he took from the other.

Circuit Judge Rick De Furia said at Coffin's trial Tuesday that he doesn't condone the violence against the deputies.

But Coffin, 56, had a right to defend his family and property because the deputies had no right to be in Coffin's house in the first place, De Furia said.

"Law enforcement was responsible for the chain of events here," De Furia said. "I think in situations like this, officers become so frustrated they go beyond what the law allows them to do."

The fight started when Coffin heard his wife screaming in pain, went into the garage and saw two deputies arresting her on the floor.


The deputies were trying to serve
Coffin with civil papers that had been given five days earlier. They had entered the garage even though they did not have a search warrant or arrest warrant.

And they arrested Coffin's wife, Cynthia, 50, on obstruction charges even though she had no obligation to follow their orders to bring her husband outside.

"The most critical is the fact the officers broke the law by stopping the garage door from going down," and then entering the garage, De Furia said.

A jury was picked for the trial Monday. But the judge granted a motion by Coffin's attorneys, Derek Byrd and Brett McIntosh, and acquitted John Coffin on five of six felony charges Tuesday morning.

Coffin pleaded no contest to the remaining charge of taking a Taser gun from one of the deputies during the fight.

Before handing down the sentence, De Furia asked how long Coffin spent in jail after his initial arrest.

"You spent eight days in the Sarasota County jail," De Furia said. "That's your sentence. No probation."

Relatives applauded, and Coffin walked out of the courthouse with only a $358 bill for court costs. The sentence surprised even defense attorneys, who had suggested De Furia sentence Coffin to probation.

Prosecutors had asked for more than a year of prison time because of "the totality of the case" and the injuries to deputies James Lutz and Stacy Ferris, whose name is now Stacy Brandau.

The two deputies testified about their injuries Tuesday -- three blows to the head with the butt of the Taser gun knocked Lutz unconscious.

"I just ask that he doesn't get away with this," Brandau told the judge.

Assistant State Attorney Jeff Young told the judge the case "could have been over in five seconds" if the Coffins "had simply come out and cooperated."

"That is a man who took it upon himself to beat up two police officers," Young said.

De Furia said that while he believed the deputies' mistakes were not intentional, the Coffins had every right to lock doors, try to close their garage door and not cooperate.

"What took place in the house was unfortunate," De Furia said, "but Mr. Coffin ... had a right to resist."

I say in this case, the good guys won.

*edit* From another link on this same case, apparently the home owner tazed both deputies at one point. Something they both deserved imo.

[Tango]

Where have I said he was justified to pull his gun and shoot him? He was justified to pull his tazer.

All I have said was that if Grant had done what he was told to do the cop would never have needed to pull either the gun OR a tazer. IF he had done that then he wouldn't be dead and the cop wouldn't be on trial.

 

[Elfie]

Where have I said he was justified to pull his gun and shoot him? He was justified to pull his tazer.

All I have said was that if Grant had done what he was told to do the cop would never have needed to pull either the gun OR a tazer. IF he had done that then he wouldn't be dead and the cop wouldn't be on trial.

 

While that part in bold is true, it is also true that police are trained to subdue people with non lethal means. Police are trained to defuse situations such as this, and likely do so hundreds of times each day across this country without resorting to deadly force. The use of deadly force was not justified in this case. You are putting the blame for the use of deadly force on Oscar Grant, Oscar Grant is only responsible for his own actions, not the actions of the officer. The officer had no justification for deadly force.

[DJ111]

Wrong!  You have every right to resist an unlawful arrest or seizure.  Read your constitution.

Texas Penal Code -

38.03. RESISTING ARREST, SEARCH, OR
TRANSPORTATION.  (a) A person commits an offense if he
intentionally prevents or obstructs a person he knows is a peace
officer or a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his
direction from effecting an arrest, search, or transportation of
the actor or another by using force against the peace officer or
another.
   (b)  It is no defense to prosecution under this section that
the arrest or search was unlawful.
   (c)  Except as provided in Subsection (d), an offense under
this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
   (d)  An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the actor uses a deadly weapon to resist the arrest or
search.