White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????

[moot]

Tronski, I mean that they'll have blood on their hands either way.  What would you do?  Magically wage war against a target that's mixed with civilians, those civilians effectively doing nothing to distance themselves from said targets, without any civilian collaterals?

[Angus]

I do not think they have anywhere to go.

[Fishu]

80% below the poverty line.

No jobs, no food, and no hope.  They really don't have anything much to lose.  That's how you get the majority voting for Hamas.

--

Then again, this convo has nothing to do with just discussing WP rounds anymore and is going to be all rhetoric and politics

The poverty probably has nothing to do with a few suicide bombers blowing up busses in Israel, which lead to closing of the borders and therefore alot of people lost their access to work and marketplaces in Israel. Now they have voted Hamas, which has only made the things worse. Though, I'm afraid the people doesn't see it that way and only fault Israel for all their problems, which will further escalate the situation as israelis strike against civilian targets used as cover by Hamas.

I'm not so worried of WP as of the DIME weapon. The DIME will have long lasting effects where it is used and it will be used alot, unless Israel is forced to cease it's use.

[bongaroo]

The poverty probably has nothing to do with...

This your hypothesis or a fact you can back with evidence?  Just look at crime rates here in the US where a larger percentage of people live below the poverty line.  And here it's nowhere near that rate.

I'm disgusted with terrorists using women and children as shields, I'm tired of seeing them fire rockets and mortars across the border.

I'm sad to see such bloodshed for what will amount to nothing.  The vicious cycle is continuing to feed itself.

Need to take a look back to 1948 to see the start of all this.

[Angus]

Even further. Go to 1933...

[LLogann]

Tough call.........

WP munitions may be terrible but compared to the depleted uranium ammo we used in the Storm, makes WP look like snowballs.

[SirFrancis]

Even further. Go to 1933...

well, even further. Go to AD 70 (First Roman-Jewish War) when Hadrian destroyed the first (?) temple and the Jews exiled from Judea.

...but this fact will not end the violence in that region. Both sides have a historical claim on this land and are willing to defend or fight for their rights. As long, as the Arabs don`t accept the rights of the jewisch people to have their own state, nothing will change and Israel has to defend itself with all means. Even with using WP munition...

[Angus]

Now that ...was a point. Since Hamas don't even recognize Israel as a state at all.

[SirFrancis]

...but on the other hand, Israel can not kill their way out of the problem with Gaza...

[Shuffler]

So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?

Interesting...

 Tronsky

The problem is their so called military dress in civilian clothes. It's by their own choice to put their own citizens in harms way.

[RTHolmes]

SOP for a resistance movement working in occupied territory.


edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.

[Elfie]

SOP for a resistance movement working in occupied territory.


edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.

That must be why Israel gave up Gaza and moved all there citizens out and gave it to the Palestinians?

[tbm37323]

I think that camera crews should stay the hell out of combat zones. they give soldiers a bad rap because they kill, but thats what soldiers are here for, right ?

[bozon]

well, even further. Go to AD 70 (First Roman-Jewish War) when Hadrian destroyed the first (?) temple and the Jews exiled from Judea.

...but this fact will not end the violence in that region. Both sides have a historical claim on this land and are willing to defend or fight for their rights.

That was the second temple. The first was destroyed by the Babylonians about 600 years before that (on the exact same Jewish calendar date...)

Anyway, this dispute is not about historical claims, it is very much about present day claims. Even if one side has a better claim than the other it will not change a thing. Historical justice is a matter for academic debate, but does not exist in reality.

edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.

This is completely not true.
From the Israeli side, the dispute is about the exact borders and even that include less than 5% of the area that was not part of Israel before june 1967. The gaza strip in particular is considered by a VAST majority as not a part of Israel. This is why Israel was able to pull out and evacuate 8000 settles out of their homes. Without a very wide support base, this would have been politically impossible.

[RTHolmes]

I say again, Israel does not recognise the state of Palestine. 96 states currently recognise the state of Palestine, Israel is not one of them. Please check your facts before calling me out.