Author Topic: Aircraft crash in WNY  (Read 3881 times)

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2009, 10:51:26 PM »
Wow, that looks bad.  The freight dogs don't get any love from the media when things go bad.

It'd be a different story if it was a load of iphones that got toasted.

Offline Casca

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2009, 11:37:59 PM »
Bad stuff happens.

Most of the time the bad stuff is preventable.

Roger that.

There are two types of people, those who realize that the bad stuff could have been prevented if they had engaged in better head work and those who think other people should prevent them from getting hurt from their own bad head work.

I don't know how they are getting though the cracks.  I always taught that the Pilot In Command was the final authority, just like uncle FAA told me.

As a young pilot I engaged in lots of examples of bad head work. Some of it makes me laugh. Some of it wakes me up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat.

Its amazing how your brain digs up ancient mistakes and reminds you how close you came to pushing daisies.

Yeah, memory lane.  I've been an agricultural pilot for 21 years, I dream of wires.  No cold sweat though.

The NTSB wants to mandate technological fixes for what is really a failure of human beings to accept responsibility for their own actions.

But of course, as you know, the NTSB can mandate nothing.  They can only recommend and serve in, essentially, a staff safety capacity for DOT.

There is weather that will kill you if you let it. I suspect that, in the end, this will be the case. It is quite likely that this flight will turn out to be a series of decisions that led to disaster. The public focus will be on the last decision. The one closest to the tragedy.

I agree with this.  The BBS focus is on that very thing as well.  That's why I'm saying why don't we let them get the body parts picked up before we start hammering the crew.

The accident is truly prevented long before that. It starts with inculcating pilots with a certain attitude.

Agree.

Pilots have begun to believe the marketing slogan. Flying is safe

That is pure marketing. Flying is incredibly dangerous. Just think about it. In the hands of amateurs aircraft would crash willingly.

But the public needs the marketing slogans or they would never fly.

Pilots on the other hand need to be aware that every minute of every flight that flying is extremely hazardous. Only their good decisions make the difference.

I think most pilots realize that.  The ones I deal with certainly do.

It seems to me that Roselawn and most probably this accident were the result of pilots believing the marketing. I know for SURE the crew in Roselawn was less than concentrated on safety of flight. Don't ask me how, I'm not going to tell you. You will just have to trust that as fact.

It's not like a state secret.  The trip to the restroom, the flight attendant interuption, the violation of the sterile cockpit rule are all covered in the NTSB Blue Cover...and dismissed as not germane to the accident.  You have something else?

Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my recently dead brethren but I'd be where they are now except for my own good luck. I've done my share of very stupid things in airplanes. I just happen to be lucky.

My mama always told me "lucky is as lucky does"...well she didn't really, I just made that up...but that leads in to the safety concept of "The Randomness of Damage or Injury."  The same exact problem can result in radically different outcomes.  Running out of gas over the Bonneville salt flats at noon on a CAVU day, or at night in IMC in the mountains.  In the first case we fuel the plane and fly out, in the second we have bodies and conclude "pilot error".  That way it never happens again, right?  That's why in a safety program we punish the behaviour; not the outcome.


If the end result is new regulations for fancier ice protection and new procedures for when and where to configure flaps, gear, trim etc etc etc then we will know another band-aid is being put on the problem.

Not that I'm against better equipment and safer procedures but until the airlines focus on pilot's putting the responsibility for safety on themselves it really isn't going to change things.

I'm with you on the folly of "feel good fixes".  If we have a problem, though, with pilot performance we (with our safety hat on) have to question the management conditions that allow that problem to exist.  A primary tenet of ORM.

If anyone operating an airplane (with our pilot hat on now) hasn't figured out that their warm pink body is going to be the first at the accident scene, I'm not sure what the airlines are going to do.  It can be a real issue though.

Remember when you were in high school and took driver's ed.?  Poor old coach used to have to show us a movie called "Blood on the Highway" or something.  There were heads sticking through windshields and legs coming out from under cars; a cornucopia of automotive mayhem.  The purpose, of course, was to induce us to drive safely.  Well, how did it work?  Great, right?  No, of course not we were terrible drivers.  That's because we were not afraid of automobiles.  The coach was appealing to our safety needs but we didn't buy in because we felt no threat.  Same with pilots.  They are not afraid of the airplane so appeals to safety are similarly problematic.  There is a better approach to this but this is already getting wall of texty so I'll skip it here.




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Offline CAP1

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2009, 08:23:07 AM »
The words "Manual Approach" and "'Hot' Landing" do not appear in any FOM, GOM or SOP volume I've ever used.


the newsmedia gets so very few things right that it's almost criminal to watch these talking heads butcher their reports.   
The newsmedia oversensationalizing what they don't know can be downright dangerous


and yet, concerning other subjects,(such as the economy) everyone seem to take their words as gospel.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2009, 08:25:17 AM »
And the point of this picture is...?

dude......you just fell for his bait.......
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Offline humble

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2009, 09:32:33 AM »
No way in gods green earth or satans hot hell is Humble a Q400 captain.  That's a copy/paste from PPrune from a European Q400 pilot.

Never said I'm a Dash 8 pilot, thought the context of the post was pretty clear...

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2009, 10:03:25 AM »
Never said I'm a Dash 8 pilot, thought the context of the post was pretty clear...

You didn't cite or format your post clearly but it apparantly was not as clear as you hoped if it was misread by someone.

Offline humble

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2009, 10:56:01 AM »
You didn't cite or format your post clearly but it apparantly was not as clear as you hoped if it was misread by someone.

I'd disagree, if you read my posts here its pretty clear i'm referencing PPRuNe and other similar sites. How someone else chooses to misinterpret it is beyond my control. Whats important here is that the referenced comment is from a Dash-8 400 pilot and that sadly this is shaping up as a pilot induced event. From everything released by the NTSB so far the plane was way to slow for the conditions before deployment of gear and flaps.

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2009, 11:13:16 AM »
I'd disagree, if you read my posts here its pretty clear i'm referencing PPRuNe and other similar sites.

Cite them.  Use italics.  Use the quote feature.  The post in question has a "...here is one from today..." lead in and that's it.  I can at least empathize with someone who would read over it because I did a doubletake myself.

That said I'm well aware of what you're not I was clarifying it for another poster.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2009, 11:17:31 AM »
Ohh, I am sorry, I meant the top secret clandestine ops F-16 flight ops lounge. 

Roger! Do you consult with Rosie Odonnel on your conspiracy theories? Get some help.   :rofl
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2009, 11:25:54 AM »
Like most pilots, I learned the hard way. I used the autopilot in icing 3 years ago, noticed my airspeed drop 30 kts, disengaged the autopilot and ... oh boy ... was I up for a ride, I was lucky I was at 10K. Now I'm a training captain for my airline, and I always stress to the new guys "carefull with AP/Ice". We hire those CFIs, 1500ish Hours that were god's gift to aviation in theior previous job. But when they find themselves shooting a 2400ft RVR approach, all iced up they loose confidence, and turn the autopilot on. :cry Makes for interesting reports, but that's how they learn.

The medias, or guys like Humble lack the practice and make up their mind with informations they piece up together from various sources. They have a guenine interest and a whill to do good, but the "sources" are often missunderstood, sensationalised, or plane out wrong. This is how a "Proceed with caution" on a flight manual, will become "and it's a big NO-NO".

Keep in mind that Airplanes manuals are not written by engeneers anymore, but by lawyers. For legal reasons, AFMs are now filled with "proceed with caution" ... you would never get to fly the dam thing if u always try to stick with the segments that didn't use the word "caution".

Don't be a fool and fall for the drama "that my friend is a big NO-NO". On my C402 I can see the ice on the wing/wing tanks/intakes, even the tail, judge the thickness and determine how severe my icing is. On the Metroliner, I can see part of the leading edge, can't really judge the thickness. As silly as it sounds, my "ice guage" is the Windshield wiper, which by experience, I'm now able to corelate ice accumulation on the wipers to how my plane flies.
On the Q400, I'm guessing they can't see the wings, they probably have a little light that tells "ice", and that's it. The autopilot will do an excellent job at flying the plane in icing condition ... but it's the pilot responsability to monitor. Pilot flying/pilot monitoring, autopilot flying/autopilot monitoring. As dawger mentioned it's easy to become complaisant. The AFM, the company SOP have advisory sections ... and it's all they are ADVISORY. Doesn't prevent you to use 15 deg of flaps in icing, doesn't prevent you to use autopilot in icing ... but if you do, you better be dam sure you are watching your plane like a hawk in a state of readiness. On the plane I fly it's gradual change in pitch and airspeed.

I recently eard a lot about "How pilots don't know they fly into icing?". It's not as easy as the medias make it look. So you have your levels of icing basicly: trace, light, moderate ( deice kicks it off), severe (deice cannot remove the ice). In your brief, u have the freezing level, other pilot reports. AIRMETs are cute but they are so wide in areas who cares.


Like this morning, I had to fly the 402B from Salt Lake to Pocatello. Airmet says icing, no Pirep, Freezing level 4,000ft. I'm filed for the MEA at 10,000ft that will bring me in the clouds. I go, 8,000ft in the climb I'm picking ice, 10,000ft I'm picking up a lot of ice, ain't going to work. I ask for 12,000ft, granteed, but I only reach 11K before riding the stall. Pireps come in,  Espur at 12K reports moderate icing, Amflight at 14K reports moderate, Lifeflight at 17K reports clear of clouds, ice till 16K. I'm struggeling at 11K, riding the buffet, The boots kind of work but I'm still all packed up. I report severe @ 11K.
What does that mean for the other pilots? The guy taking off in his 737, knows that he will be picking up ice from 8K to 16K on the climb, which in winter season is like "duh!". Does he care about my severe icing report at 11K. No ... severe for my lil 402 is at best moderate for him. Aeroflgith that also flies a 402B, my severe icing report will get his attention, and it did (we fly the same route), but when he flew it 40 minutes behind me
all he encountered was moderate for a lil bit.

If you cared reading that far, my point is information is available but it's far from being in black and white. You have to gather from various sources, interpret and narrow it to what might be usefull for your flight, and it's probably going to change by the time you get there anyway. The best you can do as a pilot, is to pay attention to details especially in adverse conditions ... it surely is not like the medias and self proclaimed aviation douchbags big red flashing letters that print on your windshield. :lol
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Offline Casca

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2009, 11:34:47 AM »
Like this morning, I had to fly the 402B from Salt Lake to Pocatello. Airmet says icing, no Pirep, Freezing level 4,000ft. I'm filed for the MEA at 10,000ft that will bring me in the clouds. I go, 8,000ft in the climb I'm picking ice, 10,000ft I'm picking up a lot of ice, ain't going to work. I ask for 12,000ft, granteed, but I only reach 11K before riding the stall. Pireps come in,  Espur at 12K reports moderate icing, Amflight at 14K reports moderate, Lifeflight at 17K reports clear of clouds, ice till 16K. I'm struggeling at 11K, riding the buffet, The boots kind of work but I'm still all packed up. I report severe @ 11K.

Sounds like zero fun there. <S>
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2009, 12:18:28 PM »
Fun is fair weather flying!  :aok

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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2009, 12:32:00 PM »
Roger! Do you consult with Rosie Odonnel on your conspiracy theories? Get some help.   :rofl

No, I consult the scorpion venom hand book's recommended treatments that I found on the table at a meeting of former CIA F-16 pilot's that were visiting a friend in the hospital with brain cancer.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2009, 12:37:50 PM »
No, I consult the scorpion venom hand book's recommended treatments that I found on the table at a meeting of former CIA F-16 pilot's that were visiting a friend in the hospital with brain cancer.

Your babbling better check your cold medicine or whatever your on.  :rolleyes:
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Offline texasmom

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2009, 12:43:22 PM »
Your babbling better check your cold medicine or whatever your on.  :rolleyes:

*grin* He wasn't babbling; he was referencing a whole bunch of past stuff from the boards regarding conspiracy theories. :)
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