Not seeing the forest for the trees

[Vudak]

There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage.  I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of.  A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys.  It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room.  How does this strategy ever change?  Furballs are dynamic and always changing.  Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly.  

Actually, taking bases and Winning the War does take a good deal of strategy, which is why both happen far less frequently than they could. 

Now that Trinity's back in the rotation, just look at the SE sector.  You have A1 which is the mountain pass at 3k or so, and then a few 1k fields south and east of it.  Then you have that monster base (forget the #) on the mountain at 5k south-east of A1. 

CLEARLY, that mountain base is the key to dominating the region.  Defenders can be ready to fight with energy within two minutes, and attacks can be launched on the entire region from that base with near impunity.  It is a Malta, Gibraltar, and Ticonderoga all rolled into one.  It needs to fall, or your offensive in that region WILL falter.

But how often is that base taken?  Hardly ever.  The low-lying fields around it are constantly contested and changing hands.  They'd change hands only once if that mountain field was the attacker's first target.  Yet it almost never is.

Why not?  Because it is a difficult base to crack, which takes coordination, team work, strategy, and effort to capture.  And for all their harping on about how much they love those aspects of the game, 9/10 Win the Warriors almost never display them.

Sad, harsh, true.

[moot]

"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics"

[Getback]

"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics"

 

[Vudak]

"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics"

Ok, let's work with that then. 

Win the Warriors: ask yourselves how long it takes your aircraft to reach their designated altitude for approach to the target.  Let's suppose that's 10k.  Now factor in the amount of time it takes to reach that altitude, cover the distance between your starting base and your target, and to get up to combat speed.  Fully-laden with ord and such, that takes a while.

Then decide just how long it takes for an enemy in a popular aircraft for base defence to match or exceed that altitude (remember, they have a 5k head start), and move into position to intercept your mission.  Flying clean as most in defence-mode will, this does not take near as much time at all.

How many sorties can each of the defenders fly during the time it takes one of the attackers to arrive at that base?  Obviously, the defender can up many more sorties.  Follow that through, and you see that to win, the attacker needs to shoot down X number of enemies for each 1 loss of its own.  For every 1000 feet of altitude a defending base launches its planes from, X will grow. 

If the Attacker launches from the high ground, X begins to shrink to levels more manageable.

In a game where you have infinite lives, attrition (and logisitics) can be a tricky concept to grasp.  It's easy enough to just look at the ebb and flow of the current, local numbers, but the real force at work is the amount of time it takes each side to make their distant numbers become local.

Heck, I'm a furballer, and I can figure it out.  I'm sure you mission types could perfect it if you had the inclination.

[FiLtH]

 Wow this is a long thread.

     The war thing AND furballing is about on the same plane of fun for me. I can do either and have a little bit of fun,but much prefer wandering the fringe finding a lone guy to fight. The base take stuff is either the "Sneaky Pete" method, or the "Sledgehammer" method. After awhile both get boring. A great 1 on 1 however, I could do till the cows come home.

[NoBaddy]

Up until the last few posts I have treated everyone with respect and courtesy. Have they done the same? Nope. Yes it is volatile. I was counting on maturity. Now that was foolish. I never called anyone stupid and until your post I never attacked an individual player or poster ever. So what do you expect when you attack me personally.

So you can roll your eyes and be condescending all you want. If you attack me you're going to get it back. It seems being courteous and respectful only make you the target.

BTW, in reference to my genius statement folks were taking tidbits from my post and adding additional wording to make it say what they wanted to or they were copying different lines from different segments to do the same thing. I don't think that adds much to the argument. Do you? Now where I was off I at least had the guts to say yeah, I was off there. I see that from no one else. I mean you just did it. You said I called someone stupid. I never did. Well actually your sentence was broken up a bit. But it seems to indicate that. I don't think these people are stupid.

So, you can "imply" that you believe the people you are arguing with are stupid (the quote was....I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius.." and you aren't really calling anyone stupid? Congats on your degrees and your smart children...you might wanna grab a clue rake the next time you are in the gift shop. 

BTW, I NEVER took any of your statements out of context, nor did I alter the wording. The only problem I had with you was your choice to use a scatter gun to try and deal with those that did. You made a blanket statement to the community, basically insulting anyone that might have disagreed with you....and yes. I took offense. You might want to consider being a little more specific when tossing insults around.


edit begins here..

Having read the rest of your posts in the thread since you tried to take me to task, it appears that you have recovered from your fit of pique yesterday. I am please because prior to your insulting post, I know that I had not intentionally insulted you. I hope it stays that way.

BTW, when you stop by the gift shop...give 'em the keyphrase "NB's an ICEhole" they will add a 10% charge to your purchases. 

[bongaroo]

LOL...Says Mr

Quote from: Joker2 on January 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM
I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?

I still laugh to myself when I think about him saying that to me.  Good times, good times.
 
 
 

[grizz441]

Sometimes I think that win the warrers have a disillusioned view on the dynamic of the game on the micro level.  For example, say there is a big battle between two bases that rages for an hour.  A great furball.  Finally one side knocks out the fighter hangars and lopsides the fight and the base is taken.  The Win the war guys will immediately congratulate all the pilots involved in the victory.  It's like some of them think that everyone was fighting to capture the base when in reality most were fighting just to engage in air to air combat and enjoy the game for its intended purpose.  In doing so on the micro level, the macro goal (WtW'ers goal anyways) was achieved in taking the base.  I don't think the majority of the players really care that the base was captured and a good portion will be upset that the fight is dead. 

[Widewing]

Falconwing, lets clear the air a little bit, okay?

What you found to be an insult to your squad was this statement: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap."

That may hurt some feelings, but it was meant to provoke some thought. First and foremost, it's a true statement. Granted, I could have said that there isn't one member of the BOPs that would survive a duel with me. So yeah, it was harsh; but it wasn't exaggeration. Nonetheless, it wasn't polite and I apologize for being rather unkind. You defended your guys and that's a good thing. That's what good leaders do.

You seem like a good guy, and fellow DFC guys who know you have told me exactly that. Being pretty good judges of character, I will gladly accept their opinions as fact. So rather than snipe at each other, let's concentrate on how we can agree. Fair enough?

I realize that you set up training sessions for your squad to duel and brawl. That's also a good thing. However, I have learned that most players will never rise above the level of competition. When average players duel average players, the winner is just a better average player. To get to a higher level, you need stiffer competition. This would be top level pilots who can spot mistakes and weaknesses and make or recommend immediate adjustments. That's where the Trainers and DFC can benefit your guys.

I'm willing to join your group in the TA anytime you want to bring them in. I can bring in other trainers and/or DFC members. Believe me, a few intense sessions will switch on lights.

First, we'll show how them exactly how outclassed they are. I know that sounds mean and even pompous, but it is essential to recognize where you are. They need that baseline. With 30 minutes of coaching, they will actually see a measurable improvement. They will become excited that they could step it up that quick. Every one of them will come away realizing that they have more potential than they ever imagined. From there, it's upward and onward. As they they improve, increments of gain will become smaller. Like a runner, getting to a 5 minute mile is attainable. Getting to 4:45 will be hard. Getting to 4:40 will be very hard. We should be able to get everyone to the 5 minute mile goal. Some will continue, working for the next level. Others will be satisfied at the 5 minute mark. However, all will be notably better for the effort.

I think it's worth the effort.

PM me if you think I can help your guys...


My regards,

Widewing

[bj229r]

.........................
Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. 

Lol that musta been a while back...sounds like me though

[Getback]

Lol that musta been a while back...sounds like me though

Probably about 7 or 8 months ago. You said wow, long drive. I think it was better than a sector drive. Nothing was really going on so I jumped into an osty and started driving.

[Getback]

So, you can "imply" that you believe the people you are arguing with are stupid (the quote was....I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius.." and you aren't really calling anyone stupid? Congats on your degrees and your smart children...you might wanna grab a clue rake the next time you are in the gift shop. 

BTW, I NEVER took any of your statements out of context, nor did I alter the wording. The only problem I had with you was your choice to use a scatter gun to try and deal with those that did. You made a blanket statement to the community, basically insulting anyone that might have disagreed with you....and yes. I took offense. You might want to consider being a little more specific when tossing insults around.


edit begins here..

Having read the rest of your posts in the thread since you tried to take me to task, it appears that you have recovered from your fit of pique yesterday. I am please because prior to your insulting post, I know that I had not intentionally insulted you. I hope it stays that way.

BTW, when you stop by the gift shop...give 'em the keyphrase "NB's an ICEhole" they will add a 10% charge to your purchases. 

Pique? hehe learned a new word. From your previous post it seemed you were attacking me. Maybe I was off. It's hard to communicate effectively sometimes on the bbs or understand the communication. But yeah, I'm off my pique. It appeared to me that some folks weren't addressing the basic message and were attacking the messenger. However, then Murdr got on the subject at hand in full force and we had what I would call a great debate. No tricks no partial phrases etc. Really had me thinking. I like that. I honestly had to admit one of my statements was in error. I sure hate that.  However, in the same reference it bolstered my stance. So it was kind of a good moment too.

[bj229r]

Probably about 7 or 8 months ago. You said wow, long drive. I think it was better than a sector drive. Nothing was really going on so I jumped into an osty and started driving.

In AW I used to jump in T34, aim it at A's spit factory, (no terrain) and go shopping for a few hours...come back, blast fargin spit factory to hell

[NoBaddy]

Getback...

I actually had a very nice phone conversation with a fellow that is in a professed "win the war" squad. After an hour (not all spent talking about this crap ), he was able to admit that I might have a point and that he was going to start paying attention to how other folks play the game and see if what I was saying had any merit.

What I suggested was that he stop looking at the game from inside his squad and start to look at how others play. So yes, I would agree that text is a piss poor method of communication.

[NoBaddy]

In AW I used to jump in T34, aim it at A's spit factory, (no terrain) and go shopping for a few hours...come back, blast fargin spit factory to hell

Not sure if you ever played 1/2 time. The ST was mouse only then and you could put the plane in a spiral climb with the mouse and start typing taunts as you went up. I think it took at least 30 minutes to get to 10k in those days....in a fighter .