What does it take to perk?

[Anaxogoras]

The mossie and 110 are nowhere near the top of the E retention scale.

I assume by "E retention" you mean the ability of e.g. a Spitfire to pull a high g turn and barely slow down.  What I tested for was basic kinetic energy retention without power:  I dove each plane to 400mph, shut off the engine and used a stopwatch to time the deceleration to 150mph.  In these tests all the twin engine aircraft were superior to any single engine aircraft, however, bronk has brought it to my attention that they may not be that superior.  It may be that twin engine aircraft in AH auto-feather the props when you switch the engines off, which the single engine aircraft don't do.  I'm yet to test this and determine if it's so.

[moot]

I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.

[SmokinLoon]

I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.

I made that point as well, moot.  It is like pushing Lance Armstrong down the hill on his bike and seeing how far he'll coast and calling him good.

And as far as retaining "E", the Mossie does it very well.  One can only gather that the light weight, powerful dual engines, and airframe characteristics lend to its ability to do so well.  Matter of fact, my squaddie and I did a test not all that long ago.  He followed me into a 45d dive in his Spit9 until I reached 450mph and then I pulled up sharp enough (he followed) that the beginning stages of blackout set in and went almost stright up.  I had near %50 fuel, no ords (had been used vs gv's), he had near %100.  Guess who stalled out first?

[BnZs]

I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.

Agreed. How well a plane performs as a projectile may be academically interesting, but its how well it retains energy when it has both mass AND thrust working in its favor is what matters in any practical sense.

[Anaxogoras]

Don't conflate the practicality of a test with what it measures.

True Air Speed certainly has a role to play for ENY, but no one questions it despite its irrelevance for practical play.

What I see here is that you all want "energy" to mean energy + thrust, and maybe even induced drag thrown in there, too.  You can define it that way if you want, but then it's a different word.

[moot]

The mossie's not a great zoomer.. It does about as well as a P47, without the good very high speed retention. It bleeds E very quick under maneuvers.

Anaxagoras, the point of ENY is to gauge lethality and how hard it is to kill / survive plane X. Gliding around off power is very far down the list of useful attributes for that criteria. 
I don't see what you mean with the TAS bit. 

[Anaxogoras]

The mossie's not a great zoomer.. It does about as well as a P47, without the good very high speed retention. It bleeds E very quick under maneuvers.

Anaxagoras, the point of ENY is to gauge lethality and how hard it is to kill / survive plane X. Gliding around off power is very far down the list of useful attributes for that criteria. 
I don't see what you mean with the TAS bit. 

I mean, HTC sees the high-alt TAS of the 152, 47N and Spitfire XIV as having a role to play in ENY, even though none of these aircraft reach that potential in the arena.

As for energy retention, the power-off glide is the only way to isolate it for measurement.  The pure energy retention of an aircraft is always at work in conjunction with other factors during powered flight.

What most here call "energy retention" is more like low induced-drag or aspect ratio, the factors that determine the ability to make a high G turn with minimal speed bleed-off.

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Edit: I just thought of a good example of how important pure energy retention can be: the BoB scenarios we run and the preeminence of the 110C.  Even though the Spitfire is faster on paper, RAF pilots complain constantly about not being able to catch the 110C.  The reason for that is because the 110C holds dive speed after leveling off for far longer than the Spitfire Mk I.

[moot]

They do get opportunity for use up there more than occasionaly.  The La7 & co get trashed up there, so the ENY credit for high alt performance isn't undue.
That it's hard to measure something doesn't mean it loses relevance. Energy retention is energy retention. Composed of all its parts: in turns, in zooms, etc.  General notion = sum of its specific cases.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm ok with it being a term of convenience, but doesn't it become ambiguous when "energy retention" is used interchangeably for the ability to hold speed after a dive and the ability to hold speed in a high g turn?  The responsible factors couldn't be more different.

[moot]

It doesnt really matter. It comes down the same thing in practice, as far as tactical maneuvering is concerned. It's a completely utilitarian metric. "Does the plane stay fast in the full spectrum of maneuvers it's expected to make?"

[Anaxogoras]

It doesnt really matter. It comes down the same thing in practice, as far as tactical maneuvering is concerned. It's a completely utilitarian metric. "Does the plane stay fast in the full spectrum of maneuvers it's expected to make?"

Ok, I will agree to this terminology, on the condition that no one here corrects me with my own reasoning in the future.

[moot]

Off power glide doesnt weigh anywhere near as much as powered speed retention in any/all maneuvering does, for ENY purposes.

[Bronk]

The abwility to dump E can be vewy, vewy, important.. hahahaahha.
Or the lack there of.

[BnZs]

The abwility to dump E can be vewy, vewy, important.. hahahaahha.
Or the lack there of.

Yes, but it is more important in the AHII mains than perhaps it should be because so many come in hell bent for leather for the shot, without the patience or knowledge to use a repositioning maneuver should the defender dump E radically.

[oakranger]

Perking them is not the complete answer. Their performance is very unhistorically super-powered. Need some more limitations on the game engine, and I don't expect those to arrive anytime soon.

Some other folks have suggested stop-gap measures to help, such as losing drones if you fly above certain speeds, shortening drone "leash" length so that any radical manuvering loses your drones instantly (none of this immelman-and-keep-your-drones crap).

I too get real piss how people fly the bombers beoynd its cabapalbility.  There need to be something done that limited there ability like dive bomb lanc on CV.