Combat Flaps

[EskimoJoe]

Wow Anaxogoras, that story you posted got me sweating!  Very interesting, thank you!

[redman555]

Stall speed doesnt go down with flaps? Come to think of it the P51 flaps down braking action seems too severe which is why I try not to use them.

your slowing down faster when flaps drop.... its creating drag and you will begin to stall out


-BigBOBCH

[BarryBD]

Flaps change the angle of attack, which is the most crucial factor in stalling...

It can happen at any speed

[SirLoin]

I asked the Vet Pilot(forget his name) at the AH con several years back,if he had ever used his combat flaps in combat(he was a p51 pilot with several kills)...He said quite bluntly.."No"

I forget the name of his plane too.It was the year Drex retired.

[Sunka]

I asked the Vet Pilot(forget his name) at the AH con several years back,if he had ever used his combat flaps in combat(he was a p51 pilot with several kills)...He said quite bluntly.."No"

I forget the name of his plane too.It was the year Drex retired.

Seems you forgot more about the story then you remember about it.

[Bucky73]

Flaps change the angle of attack, which is the most crucial factor in stalling...

It can happen at any speed

spot on

[Cthulhu]

He was low over the water and carrying ords which he chose not to jetison. He was that good.... unfortunately in real life it only takes once. You don't get a new plane and start over. God Bless him!

Actually, he was over the jungle and carrying drop tanks, but your point still holds. Nobody was better than Tommy at pushing the limit. He was notorious for the abuse he heaped on his plane, and other pilots often commented that "Pudgy" never seemed to track quite "straight" (kinda like a car that's been in a wreck  ) The day he died, even HIS skill couldn't compensate for being low, slow, & heavy.

[Badboy]

Wow Anaxogoras, that story you posted got me sweating!  Very interesting, thank you!

A good story, but there is some doubt over its authenticity. Apparently Eric Hartmann and his unit had left Romania quite some time earlier.

I haven't checked it myself, but I have seen the controversy discussed elsewhere and the consensus seems to be that it wasn't Hartmann.

Badboy

[Anaxogoras]

It's very plausible that it wasn't Hartmann, I agree.  Some pilots flew 109s that looked like Hartmann's just for the psychological impact.

I also suspect that it was a 30mm Mk 108 that downed the 51 in the story, and not a 20mm MG 151.

[AWwrgwy]

Did you see where the pony pilot says he out turned the 109s easily. He must be lieing because the AcesHigh ponys can't do that. 

Depets on the speed of the aircraft involved.  Won't a 300mph Pony out turn a 300mph 109 in AH2?



wrongway

[Anaxogoras]

Depets on the speed of the aircraft involved.  Won't a 300mph Pony out turn a 300mph 109 in AH2?



wrongway

Not at 300mph, but at 400mph, yes.

[Motherland]

It's very plausible that it wasn't Hartmann, I agree.  Some pilots flew 109s that looked like Hartmann's just for the psychological impact.

I also suspect that it was a 30mm Mk 108 that downed the 51 in the story, and not a 20mm MG 151.

Hartmann did some effective work with the MG151. Though I would imagine that the one shot was just an exaggeration. In any case, if it was Hartmann, it would have been an MG151, as he didn't like the MK108.

In any case, this sounds like something that would have been mentioned in 'the Blonde Knight of Germany', however the only encounters with Mustangs that are described are his first (in which he shot down 5), and a few days later (where he was forced to bail out). That story doesn't sound anything like either of them, and in general it doesn't sound in any way like Hartmann would fly, being the 'picker' that he was.

Hartmann never really had 200 kills, he scored kills 193-202 on the same day. And I'm sure the pilot would have noticed 60 more kill bars under the 200, as by the time he encountered Mustangs over Ploesti this is what his tally was closer to (his first 5 Mustangs were kills 262-266). This is if Hartmann was even still marking his kills, I know he stopped by August '44 (by which time he had scored 300). In mid-1944 I don't think there were any other pilots in 9./JG52 with 200+ kills.... this sounds like it was a bit.... embellished

[MjTalon]

Still a good story none the less. 

Now if only i could spook a P51 pilot like in that story... 

[Ack-Ack]

He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic 

The snap roll and subsequent spin into the ground was not a result of him using flaps or the turn at the time of the engagement.  His plane spun in due to asymetrical power being applied, if done incorrectly in the P-38, it would have a tendency to enter into a violent snap rolling and spin which at very low altitudes would be virtually impossible to pull out of.


ack-ack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

No it wasn't the same tactic. get your facts straight. McGuire and 2 other 38s were on a fighter sweep. They encountered 1 zeke early on. He was higher than them. (At this time McGure was trying to catch Bong for #1 kill count) The zeke pounced one of the 38s. McGuire broke a HUGE rule...He didn;t jettison his drop tank because if he did that, it meant he would have to return to base early. McGuire turned to engage the zeke that was attacking his wingman, when the plane stalled out and he hit the ground.

Wrong on your part as well. There were four planes in McGuire's flight, not three. Rittmayer was killed by a head on pass, and McGuire snap rolled and went in, most likely when the plane he was flying did not respond to his throttle work the way he expected. McGuire was not flying his own plane that day, but rather another plane from the squadron that had been worked over the night before. Weaver and the other pilot, Thropp I believe, made it back to base, and Weaver informed Mac that Rittmayer and McGuire were down and burning. The first enemy plane encountered was NOT higher, but in fact lower.